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Gorgias
Guest
I never thought of it in that way! Interesting reflection… thanks!
If God is loving, merciful and almighty, why aren’t all people saved already?
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Rose9
Guest
I’ve wondered about this at times as well. In the presence of the Beatific Vision, one’s freedom is retained, yet one is guaranteed to freely choose to love God because no one would want to sin if they saw God as he truly is. Why doesn’t God just create us in his presence from the beginning? In fact, baptized children who die before reaching the age of reason are, practically speaking at least, in a similar position: they never had the capacity to freely choose God prior to their death, yet they will go to heaven and freely love God for all eternity.
I’m not sure I fully understand why God doesn’t do the foregoing. But I suspect God wants to give the majority of us the opportunity to choose between him and other things. Perhaps it is more delightful to love God when one has had the practical opportunity to choose a lesser good, and yet chose him.
I’m not sure I fully understand why God doesn’t do the foregoing. But I suspect God wants to give the majority of us the opportunity to choose between him and other things. Perhaps it is more delightful to love God when one has had the practical opportunity to choose a lesser good, and yet chose him.
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Justin_Mary
Guest
G
Gorgias
Guest
God is defined as ‘omniscient’; we’re not. By definition, there’s stuff He knows that we don’t. God is defined as ‘omnibenevolent’. That means that there’s stuff that we don’t know about God that, nevertheless, is still all-Good, even if it’s mysterious.
Part of the challenge of being Christian is being able to admit to not knowing everything while nevertheless being able to hold on to our belief in God and His goodness.
L
Latin
Guest
310 Why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite power God could always create something better.
But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection.
With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.).
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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321 Divine providence consists of the dispositions by which God guides all his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end.
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311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history.
Will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest for which he created heaven and earth.
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Catholic Encyclopedia Divine providence says;
The end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work (St. Ambrose, De Offic. minist, XIII in P.L, XVI, 41; St. Augustine, Ps, cxlv, n. 12,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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294 The ultimate purpose of creation is that God who is the creator of all things may at last become all in all thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude.
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Eph.1:10; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
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As we see above; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times God will saves everyone in Christ.
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God bless
With infinite power God could always create something better.
But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection.
With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.
.
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.).
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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321 Divine providence consists of the dispositions by which God guides all his creatures with wisdom and love to their ultimate end.
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311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history.
Will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest for which he created heaven and earth.
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Catholic Encyclopedia Divine providence says;
The end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work (St. Ambrose, De Offic. minist, XIII in P.L, XVI, 41; St. Augustine, Ps, cxlv, n. 12,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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294 The ultimate purpose of creation is that God who is the creator of all things may at last become all in all thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude.
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Eph.1:10; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
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As we see above; In the dispensation of the fullness of the times God will saves everyone in Christ.
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God bless
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
A better question might be, why do so many people think that God should have created us in some way that we couldn’t possibly sin or otherwise guaranteed that we were all going to Heaven, so our actions on earth would be of no consequence?
Do you all not think that there is value in humans actually choosing and earning Heaven, as opposed to “we’re all saved anyway so just do whatever you want on earth”?
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Mintaka
Guest
If God wanted us all to be happy-faced puppets with only non-choices, He would have made a computer game instead of a world.
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Jeanne_S
Guest
Exactly.,…
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Edwyn
Guest
In other words, God wants us to be not just happy, but gloriously happy.
There is no such being that is “naturally happy”, not even, in a sense, God. As St. Thomas Aquinas taught, God’s Will is such that He constantly wills Himself into existence (ST I, Q 19, A 1). In every moment, He knows and wills Himself to be Himself, and of course this is what love is: “God is love” (1 John 4:8). And as we all know, love causes joy. That is why God is always joyful.
Nothing in this universe is more consequential than willing God into existence, and then people want to be “naturally happy” without any effort, without any merit? They want to be better than God?
Honestly, these people make me sick.
There is no such being that is “naturally happy”, not even, in a sense, God. As St. Thomas Aquinas taught, God’s Will is such that He constantly wills Himself into existence (ST I, Q 19, A 1). In every moment, He knows and wills Himself to be Himself, and of course this is what love is: “God is love” (1 John 4:8). And as we all know, love causes joy. That is why God is always joyful.
Nothing in this universe is more consequential than willing God into existence, and then people want to be “naturally happy” without any effort, without any merit? They want to be better than God?
Honestly, these people make me sick.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Are you saying that in Christianity the default position is salvation through Jesus even without baptism? Or is the latter also necessary for salvation and faith in Jesus, with or without good deeds, is insufficient?
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Good point. Our lives form a moral and legal partnership with Gd according to Jewish thinking. Both Gd and mankind have their responsibilities, and we must do our share.
P.S. Off topic, but I inadvertently deleted your message. Not too knowledgeable about the topic anyhow.
P.S. Off topic, but I inadvertently deleted your message. Not too knowledgeable about the topic anyhow.
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Usagi
Guest
Baptism is normatively necessary (that is, if you could easily get baptized and just don’t, you’re in trouble), but God can supply the effects of any of the sacraments if someone can’t participate in them for whatever reason (dies beforehand, has no idea baptism is required, etc.)
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Rose9
Guest
The rest of my post comes to that conclusion…
Tis_bearself, I don’t think people want God to create us so we could do whatever we want on earth, but that God would create us so that we wouldn’t be tempted to sin. I mean, it would be nice because then no one would be damned?? I’m not saying God is unjust to have created us the way he has, I was just raising a speculative question about why he didn’t make things easier. I’m sure he has his reasons, its just not entirely clear to us on this earth (or to me at least) why that is.
Tis_bearself, I don’t think people want God to create us so we could do whatever we want on earth, but that God would create us so that we wouldn’t be tempted to sin. I mean, it would be nice because then no one would be damned?? I’m not saying God is unjust to have created us the way he has, I was just raising a speculative question about why he didn’t make things easier. I’m sure he has his reasons, its just not entirely clear to us on this earth (or to me at least) why that is.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I think the question is, if it isn’t clear to you or anyone else, have you really thought deeply and tried to understand, before you just went to the “why didn’t God just make a perfect world and make us perfect too” scenario.
Our experience on earth might very well be God’s way of trying to make us perfect and sinless through our actions, our learning, our effort down here. How would we know to value God’s love, mercy and presence so much if we didn’t have first-hand experience with what happens when God leaves the room? God doesn’t want a bunch of little robots, as somebody else said. He wants people who freely choose to love Him, and that by necessity means that some people will choose NOT to love him. Hence, sin.
Our experience on earth might very well be God’s way of trying to make us perfect and sinless through our actions, our learning, our effort down here. How would we know to value God’s love, mercy and presence so much if we didn’t have first-hand experience with what happens when God leaves the room? God doesn’t want a bunch of little robots, as somebody else said. He wants people who freely choose to love Him, and that by necessity means that some people will choose NOT to love him. Hence, sin.
L
Latin
Guest
One of the greatest flaw in us is; we trying to explain Catholic Soteriology without first we study and know the Soteriological facts.
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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If God would willed, he could create this world where is no dramas of evil and sin, but God willed to create this world with the dramas of evil and sin out of love for the benefit of the entire human race.
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God wills in this world the dramas of evil and sin by the acts of our sins for the reason to convert our sins into greater good, this is a part of the process the way God makes us saints.
So, our acts of good and evil/ sin equally the will of God and the whole human race benefits from it.
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311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT in order to fulfil his good purpose.
God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. … (Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3).
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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION John Salza
When God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace) that infallibly produces the end (the act willed by God).
If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious, grace.
The distinctions between these graces reveal that God is responsible for man’s salvation.
EXAMPLE
The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza, Page 113.
However, the Church teaches that God infused Adam with sufficient grace to resist temptation and to perform his duties with charity.
God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin. End quote.
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THE SAME PRINCIPLE APPLIES TO US AS WELL
When God wills that we freely reject His grace and to commit and act of sin He provides us a sufficient grace and we always FREELY reject the grace and we every time FREELY commit the act of sin.
When God wills that we freely reject the temptation of sin He provides us an efficacious grace and we ALWAYS FREELY and infallibly reject the temptation of sin and we every time FREELY choose the good.
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As we see above, with the provision of sufficient and efficacious graces God perfectly governs/ aides the entire human race WITHOUT ANY FORCE and guides the entire human race WITHOUT ANY FORCE to perfection, to die in the state of grace and to sainthood without exclusion.
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God bless
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
.
If God would willed, he could create this world where is no dramas of evil and sin, but God willed to create this world with the dramas of evil and sin out of love for the benefit of the entire human race.
.
God wills in this world the dramas of evil and sin by the acts of our sins for the reason to convert our sins into greater good, this is a part of the process the way God makes us saints.
So, our acts of good and evil/ sin equally the will of God and the whole human race benefits from it.
.
311 For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT in order to fulfil his good purpose.
God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. … (Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3).
.
THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION John Salza
When God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace) that infallibly produces the end (the act willed by God).
If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious, grace.
The distinctions between these graces reveal that God is responsible for man’s salvation.
EXAMPLE
The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza, Page 113.
However, the Church teaches that God infused Adam with sufficient grace to resist temptation and to perform his duties with charity.
God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin. End quote.
.
THE SAME PRINCIPLE APPLIES TO US AS WELL
When God wills that we freely reject His grace and to commit and act of sin He provides us a sufficient grace and we always FREELY reject the grace and we every time FREELY commit the act of sin.
When God wills that we freely reject the temptation of sin He provides us an efficacious grace and we ALWAYS FREELY and infallibly reject the temptation of sin and we every time FREELY choose the good.
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As we see above, with the provision of sufficient and efficacious graces God perfectly governs/ aides the entire human race WITHOUT ANY FORCE and guides the entire human race WITHOUT ANY FORCE to perfection, to die in the state of grace and to sainthood without exclusion.
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God bless
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Vico
Guest
Salvation is to die in a state of Christlike charity, which must be a free will choice. Logically that state cannot be forced on someone.
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Edwyn
Guest
I think the answer to this is that: there is no such thing as a non-glorious everlasting joy. God wants us to be happy, but happiness has to be earned, has to be willed. As I noted before, even God has to will His own happiness through loving Himself. A joy that is not earned may be so impossible that even God cannot give that to us; He even does not have it!
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Latin
Guest
Vico, God is the FIRST CAUSE of our willing and acting and I’m sure Vico you know, NO ONE reject God’s gift of efficacious grace of His call to heaven, we all FREELY and INFALLIBLY receive it, and without any FORCE, we all gladly say YES to God’s call to heaven.
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I’m sure Vico, you also know, if even on person would reject God’s call to heaven and end up in hell, in all Christian history, God would instantly lose His omniscience. – This is a DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church, the highest level of binding theological certainty.
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The above Soteriological Fact is IRREFUTABLE PROOF, God is responsible for the salvation of the entire human race.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
.
St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:
St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION
De gratia Christi 25, 26:
For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.
Yet our ability to respond is also His gift of efficacious grace.
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We have a power to reject efficacious grace but we NEVER reject efficacious grace, because the grace enlightens our mind and we ALWAYS FREELY and without ANY FORCE, INFALLIBLY chose the good.
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God bless
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Vico
Guest
I believe that the correct way to state it is that all have the free choice to reject the sufficient grace, but by not rejecting it, receive an increase of grace called efficacious grace. The universal salvific will is expressed in sufficient grace.
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Gorgias
Guest
This is gonna sound weird, but…
God isn’t nice… He’s good.
In our society, sometimes, ‘nice’ gets held up as the highest good. It ain’t. You can be nice toward someone and still not be doing good toward them. (For example, it would be nice to not punish criminals. That wouldn’t be good for either them or their future victims, though.)
So, I’m with you that God’s rationale isn’t entirely clear to us on earth, but I disagree that the goal here is being “nice”.
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