If God is not perfectly benevolent, does He exist?

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faithincrisis

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I’m been a faithful practicing Catholic my whole life but lately I’ve had some serious doubts.

In Genesis, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah wholesale including the children.

In Exodus, God reacted to the murder of the Israelite boys and the enslavement of the Israelites by, eventually, sending the plagues and killing the first-born of Egypt.

I think it is self-evident that killing babies is wrong. Here in Canada we have been working and praying for the end of abortion for 40 years and God has not answered us.

God is all powerful. He could have spared the children of the cities of the plain, Egypt, Israel and stopped abortion. He hasn’t. I am not God but if I could save a child I would be morally obligated. God is infinitely powerful. He could save them all from death but He hasn’t.

Does this mean God is not good? Is He really a baby-killer? If He is not Good then is He really God?

I’m really struggling with this and I would greatly appreciate an answer. This has troubled me so much that it ruined my Easter.
 
This is certainly understandable. Many people struggle with this.

When I begin to have this feelings I always read Job and I realize that the “riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man.” We certainly are more than happy to accept the many great riddles, without which we would never exist, nor have any hope of reaching eternal salvation. In return, we give God the benefit of the doubt and humbly accept that some thing we will not understand. If we can thank God for the many mysteries of his church that certainly we owe Him this?

Also, “what the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away.” God has an unrevocable and unequivacle right to everything in existence. We are his property. He can take life, no one else. Abortion is a terrible thing, no doubt. But it is not God who commits an abortion, it is a mortal. Someone who has no right to take that life, that is why this is so disgusting to God.

Children die in childbirth. Many families, including my own, go through miscarriages and terrible deaths. Since God is responsible for the world, does that mean he’s responsible for say, a miscarriage, and so, not perfectly benevolent?

Also, God gave his only Son so that we might live. Who are we to question the morality of his destroying all of Sodom (except Lot’s family (except his wife))? Maybe, the lesson given by this act saved uncountable lives. Who knows?

My point is first off, read Job. Job is above all, a righteous man. We face many challenges. The world is far from perfect. Our burden is to do everything we can to love God (not from any reward, but because he ought to be loved) and to love our neighbors.
 
Thanks DavyMax3 for your kind and charitable reply. I’ll start reading Job today. From what I remember though didn’t Job’s sufferings start because God allowed the devil to test Job by killing his family, ruining his livelihood and making him ill?

Part of the questioning that I’m going through is that God holds us to certain standards though in Scripture He doesn’t follow then Himself. If I made my girlfriend ill, took her money and killed her family to see if she really loved me that would be beyond abusive wouldn’t it? I know God has the ability to do this, even the right as He did create us, but I can’t see how it is a good and loving thing to do that.

My crisis here is nagging me! I’m not trying to be belligerent with God or with all the good people who are trying to help me but I guess the crux for me is that if God is going to hold us to moral standards…ones which seem universal and right…shouldn’t He, being infinitely more capable of following these standards and infinitely more good than we are be following them too?
 
We follow these rules because of the covenant made between God and Man spoken of throughout the Bible. This covenant has nothing to do with God following the commandments. However, I understand where you’re coming from and I will try to not be a false comforter of Job. You are right about what happened to Job. Yet, after all the trials and tribulations, Job was comforted, even though he had no “answer”. His answer from God was a riddle. He responds with more questions. His spirit is something of, well, you don’t know that, here are a bunch of other things you don’t know either. Ha. And then Job basically says, yea, you’re right, I guess not everything has an explanation and some of the things you do might not seem to be “right” in my limited understanding of the world. But, what else can I do, but have faith in you and to be an upright man.

That was pretty informal so I hope my point was brought across. God is above any “commandments.” We follow those commandments because they were given by God. God is the “logos” or word of the world. He is the Way the Truth and the Light. It is impossible for God to contradict those things that are in his very nature.

However, feel not dismayed that you have these feelings. I think everyone is challenged by them at some point. Even Jesus cries out, “My God, why have you forsaken me!”
 
What is death?

And if someone is a good person, a real good person, will death ultimately be that bad?

peace,
Michael
 

I think it is self-evident that killing babies is wrong. Here in Canada we have been working and praying for the end of abortion for 40 years and God has not answered us…

… Is He really a baby-killer? If He is not Good then is He really God?
I think you make a grave error in thinking God to be “pro-life”. God is not limited to so puny an institution as having a beating heart, or a soul within a body!

God is after souls! Same as the Devil! Same as the Church!

The ending of this breathing, beating, waking existance is nothing compared to eternity.

You could sneeze and it’s over. It doesn’t matter. Choice matters. Service matters, Loyalty matters. Fidelity matters. Breathing? No. Child, old person, civilian, criminal, it’s all worth about the same, when you consider the real value of a human being is his soul.

And I think it funny, really, quite funny that the doings of God should so upset you. Forget thee who is God? Forget thee who is Ultimate, who is All Powerful? Who made souls and life? Who made the earth upon which and with which Sodom was built? Who breathed into the clay from which the Sodomites were fashioned?

Forget thee that all is God’s? Who, praytell, are you, to judge how the Almighty Most High uses His trinkets, His toys, His creations?

Oh, I take it you question whether He “loves” His creations then? What do you know of Love? Know thee more than He who is Love?

To you, God is like the sun, and all things the solar system; He’s simply bigger than anything else. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. God is bigger than all! He is ULTIMATE!

So rather than trying to cram all of Heaven into your skull, howabout you be happy that your head is allowed into Heaven, and simply marvel.
 
faithincrisis - I have found Job to be good reading at times as well. However, I hear what you’re saying and know that it requires a bit more. Do not doubt God or His plan. Even though He allowed these people to be killed (and even commanded Israel to kill all the inhabitant of Canaan when they came into the Promised Land), God is not unjust. God has reasons for these things. Remember, for example, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were extremely wicked; so much so that the Angels couldn’t find 10 righteous men in the city; God passed judgment upon Egypt (and others). Remember, Paul tells us "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom 6:23). Jesus Himself says, "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. " (John 10:10). There is a lot of evil in the world, and it’s because of sin. I understand how you feel about abortion, and I certainly join you in praying for it to be removed from the land; however, the truth is that we are living in the last days (I know every generation has thought this, but at the very least we are almost 2000 years closer to the return of Jesus than the original Apostles were). Jesus warned us that things would get worse (Luke 17:26 “As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of man.”). God is not ignoring our prayers, it’s just that there are more people that want to live in darkness than want to seek God’s face. Even here in the US, look what got elected President. He sure didn’t waste time approving stem cell research, federally funded abortions, and he isn’t done yet. There is a great darkness coming on the world, and we need to be strong in our faith. I will close with 2 scripture verses to consider and meditate on -
Job 13:15 - “Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him…”
1 Sam 30:6 - “And David was greatly distressed; for the people spake of stoning him, because the soul of all the people was grieved, every man for his sons and for his daughters: but David encouraged himself in the Lord his God.” (emphasis mine)

Hope this helps!
 
To FaithinCrisis - I’ve heard this said in reply to people not quite understanding God’s actions, and that it is important Not to apply God’s image to our own likeness, in “man’s way” of thinking–and how doing the reverse and modeling God in *our *own image usually leads to confusion and conflict in our attempts to understand him, rather than trusting God for what he really is, and leaving it up to the fact that God’s mind encompasses things that are beyond the limitations of our understanding.
I think that’s an important thing to keep in mind.
God owns life and death, so it should add a little perspective in trying to figure out things we might not fully understand yet.
I myself had trouble wondering about for instance, why God would for instance ask Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, in testing his faith. We forget to think that God knows more than us. God knowing all along that he would not allow Isaac to be harmed and how it was a foreshadowing of God’s compassion in John 3:16, in testing Abraham’s faith.
Abraham was certainly unique in his complete trust in the Lord for such a command.

Also in the Old Testament as for
In Genesis, God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah wholesale including the children.
In Exodus, God reacted to the murder of the Israelite boys and the enslavement of the Israelites by, eventually, sending the plagues and killing the first-born of Egypt.
God is all powerful. He could have spared the children of the cities of the plain, Egypt, Israel and stopped abortion. He hasn’t. I am not God but if I could save a child I would be morally obligated. God is infinitely powerful. He could save them all from death but He hasn’t.
Does this mean God is not good? Is He really a baby-killer? If He is not Good then is He really God?
I’m really struggling with this and I would greatly appreciate an answer. This has troubled me so much that it ruined my Easter.
We have to remember that man was pretty wicked back then. If God decided to take the lives of those of the world, it was probably for the best. Perhaps the babies, childrens’ souls eventually went back to God before being corrupted in a really wicked world susceptible to being separated from God forever.
Remember, even Jesus said to his disciples, *“Things that cause sin will inevitably occur, but woe to the person through whom they occur. It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.” (Luke 17:1)
*
We can’t begin to imagine how wicked, bad humans behaved in those times, if God had to for example, flood the world, and then, take out Sodom & Gomorrah …I’ll take the Bibles word for it that it must have been pretty baadddd…

The Pharaoh was also responsible for the first borns’ deaths in Egypt as he did not acknowledge the God of Moses despite the other plagues/warnings that could have prevented their deaths.
We just have to trust in God’s judgment.
Once we do that, it’s easier to meditate on tough answers, decisions of God…as well as realize how God as a just God is clearly seen in the bible in both the old and new testaments, but how grateful we are to see that it goes hand in hand in his mercifulness and compassion.

Anyway I hope your faith gets stronger with time. A year and a half ago I was a having a lapse in my own faith as a struggling Catholic myself. Something just clicked a year later.
 
I want to first thak everyone for their replies so far. I didn’t expect this kind of response. Thank you so much. I’m still struggling to just trust God and see that He is just. The morality that He gave us or is inherent in the universe or however we get those very basic truths is all so logical to me that I still can’t see justice and goodness outside of that. I’m looking for something deeper than “because God says so.” I’m having a hard time trusting Him and therefore believing at all.
 
I think you may be looking for something you can’t find. The primal step in Roman Catholicism is Faith. Without faith you will never understand. Dostoevsky speaks of this theme in the “Grand Inquisitor” but it’s also throughout a lot of Pope Benedict’s writings. Jesus speaks of this in John, especially, when speaking of the pharisees. They don’t understand him and follow him because they lacked faith.There is no way system you can set up to get the rationally correct idea of God, that doesn’t include faith.

I agree with the poster that said something clicked. I think that is faith. I had a similar experience. You must pray and do what you are doing now by seeking advice. I would also read catholic apologists such as G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis. They have guided millions in times of struggle. To start you might give “Orthodoxy” by Chesterton or “Mere Christianity” by Lewis. If you’ve read these already, then get something else in your hands and just keep searching and asking for the answer and I have faith you will find it.
 
…I’m…looking for something deeper than “because God says so.” I’m having a hard time trusting Him and therefore believing at all.
I say, have you considered that those who die deserve to die? After all, death is the punishment for sin, is it not? Thereby, were the individuals in question truly without sin, they wouldn’t be dead!

Oh, yes, but then, you probobly don’t believe a child, indeed, an infant could be sinful, or evil. Children are concieved in sin, they are born in sin, they are raised in sin. They will live in sin, and grow in sin and eventually die in and from sin. It’s the price we pay for not being perfect, for not being God. :twocents:
 
I think I would also recommend a reading of Jonah. Notice that God was going to destroy Ninevah, but when Jonah came and announced God’s plan, there was a total repentance, from the King on down (they even put sackcloth and ashes on the cattle). God saw the change of heart and withheld His judgment. We don’t always understand everything that happens, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a reason for it. Seek God through His Word (the Bible), with prayer and fasting. Find a mentor that you can talk to and confide in. Study God’s word together. While David had to encourage himself in the Lord, you have others around who would willingly walk with you through this dark time you are going through (me, other church members, pastor/priest, etc…) I pray that God will guide you safely in the way that you should go!

Pax!
 
whether you are what you say…first of all…we Catholics only believe in the NEW testament.not the old…many items there I dont like either…so much for your comments on God and love etc…no …the God we …WE…worship is not mean or does not use a scatter gun…as you so quaintly typed! Karl Marx did,as did FDR,Stalin,Hitler,etc etc…many of the stories in the old,check that word…OLD…testament I dont believe in either…surely our first lady,.Eve,was not enchanted by a sneaky evil slimy snake to try and get her hubby to take a bite out of that dang apple…etc etc what you and others of the secular humanistic cult try to brainwash us into salivating on cue…woof woof…is to defend our .OUR God…no defend yours…a liar, a cheat…a creep who murdered some 6 million innocent Jews in Germany for they declared that they would only pay $ tribute to the state,but only Love and Worship the one true God…God gave us a brain to think with, a heart to love with and a body to work with…if we dont use what He gave us its our problem…free will is the greatest gift of all…the animals,commies etc do not have free will…we RCC members do…no God does NOT murder innocent children…its the left ,ie Abortion…that does that…including the lastest travesty Obama,the leading proponent of killing babies…excuse me,gotta go…today is tea day…wheres my pitchfork,oh there it is…on to a place called Lexington…get um up scout…
 
whether you are what you say…first of all…we Catholics only believe in the NEW testament.not the old…many items there I dont like either…so much for your comments on God and love etc…no …the God we …WE…worship is not mean or does not use a scatter gun…as you so quaintly typed! Karl Marx did,as did FDR,Stalin,Hitler,etc etc…many of the stories in the old,check that word…OLD…testament I dont believe in either…surely our first lady,.Eve,was not enchanted by a sneaky evil slimy snake to try and get her hubby to take a bite out of that dang apple…etc etc what you and others of the secular humanistic cult try to brainwash us into salivating on cue…woof woof…is to defend our .OUR God…no defend yours…a liar, a cheat…a creep who murdered some 6 million innocent Jews in Germany for they declared that they would only pay $ tribute to the state,but only Love and Worship the one true God…God gave us a brain to think with, a heart to love with and a body to work with…if we dont use what He gave us its our problem…free will is the greatest gift of all…the animals,commies etc do not have free will…we RCC members do…no God does NOT murder innocent children…its the left ,ie Abortion…that does that…including the lastest travesty Obama,the leading proponent of killing babies…excuse me,gotta go…today is tea day…wheres my pitchfork,oh there it is…on to a place called Lexington…get um up scout…
The Catholic Church teaches that the whole Bible, Old and New Testament, is the written Word of God. Not just the New Testament.
 
whether you are what you say…first of all…we Catholics only believe in the NEW testament.not the old…many items there I dont like either…so much for your comments on God and love etc…no …the God we …WE…worship is not mean or does not use a scatter gun…as you so quaintly typed! Karl Marx did,as did FDR,Stalin,Hitler,etc etc…many of the stories in the old,check that word…OLD…testament I dont believe in either…surely our first lady,.Eve,was not enchanted by a sneaky evil slimy snake to try and get her hubby to take a bite out of that dang apple…etc etc what you and others of the secular humanistic cult try to brainwash us into salivating on cue…woof woof…is to defend our .OUR God…no defend yours…a liar, a cheat…a creep who murdered some 6 million innocent Jews in Germany for they declared that they would only pay $ tribute to the state,but only Love and Worship the one true God…God gave us a brain to think with, a heart to love with and a body to work with…if we dont use what He gave us its our problem…free will is the greatest gift of all…the animals,commies etc do not have free will…we RCC members do…no God does NOT murder innocent children…its the left ,ie Abortion…that does that…including the lastest travesty Obama,the leading proponent of killing babies…excuse me,gotta go…today is tea day…wheres my pitchfork,oh there it is…on to a place called Lexington…get um up scout…
You are gravely mistaken. And if you truly believe this you should consider changing your religion to something of your own device rather than purporting to be catholic.

Never in the church’s history have we ever not believed in the Old Testament. That goes for East and West and throughout the world.

I would give you sources, but there are so many and so wide ranging that you could literally pick up almost any book written by a church father/Pope and you will find references to their faith in the old testament.
 
I want to first thak everyone for their replies so far. I didn’t expect this kind of response. Thank you so much. I’m still struggling to just trust God and see that He is just. The morality that He gave us or is inherent in the universe or however we get those very basic truths is all so logical to me that I still can’t see justice and goodness outside of that. I’m looking for something deeper than “because God says so.” I’m having a hard time trusting Him and therefore believing at all.
I agree there are some things that don’t make sense at first. But this Easter the priest during Easter mass said something resounding that it’s not so much the things we understand that, strengthens our faith, but the things that we don’t and we’ve yet to understand.

So you have to really look back at what you’re really questioning. Is it really compassionate of God to leave babies to continually grow up among wolves? Allowing souls to be in perpetual state of doomed separation from God were Sodom and Gomorrah to remain…
I think that’s where the flaw comes in trying to contain God’s actions to what WE as mere men would do in our compassion for babies on Earth, specific to your doubts. It’s like trying to contain the sight and mind of God of what he sees before we can see it, or ever see it. That’s why he acts as God and we feel limited in our compassion as men, which sometimes is a bit misguided. It forced you, for instance, to consider God as a baby-killer, possibly not “Good” yet what does it truly mean in God’s word in the Bible/Gospels to save from death? Allowing people at the time of Sodom & Gomorrah to live to a ripe old age in sin is saving them from death? Who was responsible for man’s lack of salvation in those times? Can man really do a better job than God at playing judge and doling out justice? Sometimes when we feel we’re acting compassionate to a danger we end up doing more harm to society than good, that we couldn’t see til’ later. I think those are the questions you need to consider.

But keep reflecting and keep looking. You have to remember that even the closest people to God, Christ, did not get all that he was saying til’ much later. Not even during the time when God was eating and drinking with them. And these twelve were chosen out of all mankind, and yet they still had limitations to knowing God’s ways/intentions and meanings. They didn’t understand all that Jesus was saying to them until much, much later. So don’t think you’re in bad company if you feel currently perplexed.

I think one prevailing misconception for Christians today is trying reconcile the merciful, peaceful God that is assumed as his only role. And forgetting that he also has the responsibility as judge. He was not only tending to people at the time as a priest/teacher of morality, but a King exercising judgment calling out the hypocrites, sinners, and the corrupt. He spent a lot of time warning about sin and its consequences, just as much as he preached the overlooked concept of forgiveness, mercy that comes from God the father.
Remember its a two way street. The ills of the world t(hen and now) are brought upon by ourselves and our choices.

I think it’s important not only to reflect on what seems overboard for mere man in God’s justice…but also God’s compassion seems beyond man, as well, as illustrated in John 3:16-17…

Have you ever seen all those bad days when reading the news where you’re tired of the injustices, corruption in society, the lack of scruples in our fellow man, and just how depraved and bad man can be? Where you just wish that they could all be brought to justice already…and that in spite of that ‘evil’ committed by man, continually , you can only say ‘wow’ that God would come down in the flesh and witness such evil, interact with it, and withstand and be patient with it to save what little good still existed in the world.
  • For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
    17 For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved.
I agree with the poster that said something clicked. I think that is faith. I had a similar experience. You must pray and do what you are doing now by seeking advice. I would also read catholic apologists such as G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis. They have guided millions in times of struggle. To start you might give “Orthodoxy” by Chesterton or “Mere Christianity” by Lewis. If you’ve read these already, then get something else in your hands and just keep searching and asking for the answer and I have faith you will find it.
Yes, this is true. (C.S. Lewis is a great writer btw) I think if they keep their eyes and ears open, they’ll find it. It’s also interesting that its a two way street, not only did I keep my eyes open, faith/God had a way at coming back to me. I agree that faith isn’t something you can isolate. It is revealed. And it is something to continually build upon.
 
You are gravely mistaken. And if you truly believe this you should consider changing your religion to something of your own device rather than purporting to be catholic.

Never in the church’s history have we ever not believed in the Old Testament. That goes for East and West and throughout the world.

I would give you sources, but there are so many and so wide ranging that you could literally pick up almost any book written by a church father/Pope and you will find references to their faith in the old testament.
Good job in correcting that post. That’s definitely a dangerous thing to state about the Old Testament. Though, I don’t think we need to suggest they change their religion. I think its a knee jerk reaction by some who don’t understand the importance of the Old Testament. Although that one post is very incoherent, so I don’t know how sincere they are in their answer…it’s unfortunate that some people think that just because its called the “old testament” it means it should be ignored in favor of the New Testament…

There was a moment when I myself didn’t give much respect to learning the Old Testament because I was left uninformed. Only til’ i learned a little bit later that there were Christian heretics who sought to reject the Old Testament completely because they said that 'that God was not the same God in the New Testament" did I realize how misguided that thinking is.
I think the problem some uninformed Christians today have trying to reconcile the Old Testament happenings compared to the clarified teachings through Jesus is the amount of sin, violence in the times of the Old Testament. Maybe they’re in denial of humanity falling short or whatever, but I suggest they look closer because once they see past that “matter of fact stuff” or God having to punish at times, just punishiments…(because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you. ) While Old Testament is placed the context of man’s failings, and shortsightedness in their struggles with following God. They will see Jesus Christ was in the Old Testament since the very beginning and the message revealing itself was ongoing, in its parallels. Even the message of forgiveness was there, and mercy. From Abraham, imperfect prophets, to King David, reflecting the God’s will in wanting to consider man as his friends manifested later in his selection of the twelve apostles.
The presence of sin, and the ability to become master of it, it’s all there starting in the Old Testament.
 
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