If God knows all

[Houro]

If God knows our past and our future and what we are going to do, then why did he create those people who are going to end up in hell? If God knew that these people were destined for hell, then why did he create them? He knows what their destination is, so why did he let them be created if there is no changing what their future holds…

This question is really getting to me, please help me with some answers…

 

[AndrewA]

Imagine if God, before creating the universe, saw all the evil humans would commit and just said “Eh, forget it not worth the effort”.
We are not like God. God knows that we have a choice, and despite knowing what it will be he allows us to make it.
He created the angels even knowing some would abandon him.

If God only created those of us who would love him, what does that prove?
that God can be worshiped by beings he created to worship him?

God calls us to love him, even if will won’t do it. He made us because he loves us.

 

[Monica4316]

that is a complex question… I don’t have the full answer to it, but I think that human choice is a big element here. God continually gives people chances to choose Him during their lives. Some people do at some point, even if they rejected Him in the past. We have free will so we can still change the course of the future.

Many private revelations (like Fatima) said that people go to hell cause no one prays for them. Maybe if we pray more for sinners, they would receive more graces to turn to God, and so their “destiny” would be changed. Nothing is written in stone, it’s possible for anyone to turn back to God, no matter how horrible their sins are. Maybe God just wanted to give everyone a chance to choose Him.

I think it’s best that we don’t assume what it’s like to be God and how He experiences and views time and eternity and the future… this is way above us and we just can’t imagine it. But it’s important that we trust in His goodness, and if He did something a certain way, we should trust that it was the best way, because He is good and can’t do any evil

God bless

 

[davidv]

If God knows our past and our future and what we are going to do, then why did he create those people who are going to end up in hell? If God knew that these people were destined for hell, then why did he create them? He knows what their destination is, so why did he let them be created if there is no changing what their future holds…

This question is really getting to me, please help me with some answers…

Without the ability to choose evil you would also not have the ability to choose good. God created you to choose good for your and His glory. If someone ultimately chooses hell, they had until their death the ability to choose heaven, therefore they were not destined for hell. Their future was changeble by their own choices at every moment of their lives.

 

[Houro]

Despite somebody’s choice of good or evil, God knew what they were going to chose before they were created. If God knows that a person is going to chose evil, then why create them in the first place? Having the ‘freedom’ to chose Heaven or hell does not change the fact that God knows what we are going to do. Each soul in hell was predestined to go to hell from the moment they were concieved and even before that.

Although we have the choice to choose between heaven and hell, some of us will chose hell, but God knew that anyway, despite our choices. I’d rather have my choices taken away then spend and eternity in hell. There is no comparison. Hell must be such an awful place, yet God knows that people are going there… I can’t get my head around this…

 

[Rolltide]

God’s omnipotence works something like this, and I realize that this is an odd analogy:

Think of God as an NFL official who is also a football commentator for ESPN. It is the end of the season, and the Super Bowl is over. God is giving a report on the season in review.

Since all the games have been played, God knows every score, every play, and the outcome of every down. He knows who caught the ball, and who failed to make a tackle. He can analyze every aspect, or watch it in slow motion. God has knowledge of everything that happened that season.

As an NFL official, God also constructed the rules of the game. He picked the people who would officiate, and used the “instant replay” when necessary to overturn a few bad decisions, in order to make sure that the rules that he set came out the way they were intended.

Now, that said, God did not actually interfere in any of the plays, nor did he play the game for the people. Each coach, and player could have made any decision they chose. In a given situation, a quarterback could have opted to run the ball, make a pass, take a knee, or, heaven forbid, even throw the game. God did not make any of these decisions. He granted the players free will to play however they desired. This, however, does not in any way impact the fact that God still knows what happened, since it’s the end of the season, nor does it change the fact that God provided the rules to the game.

Eternity is a difficult concept, and it works a bit like that. Imagine God sitting at the end of time looking back at everything that has happened and knowing the outcome. He was able to construct rules… a plan… but still give us free will. It is a daunting concept to wrap one’s mind around.

 

[Houro]

I understand what you’re getting at Rolltide and it seems to make sense (although I have no idea about NFL, lol).

What if we look at it like this? God knows all this is going to happen since he has seen the outcome of the games and the season. But what if one of the ‘quarterbacks’ breaks his neck and is killed. Now, if an official knew this was going to happen for sure, he would stop the game and make sure that this didn’t happen. There is a difference between knowing that the quarterback ‘may’ be killed in a game as opposed to knowing that the quarterback ‘will’ be killed in the game. God is sitting there, watching the NFL season being played knowing that this player is going to be killed. No player goes out there knowing he will die, but there is a chance.

In the real world, some people are going out there not knowing that their life is going to lead them away from God and then to hell. God is watching this knowing that they are going to be punished forever… This is what get’s me.

 

[fhansen]

I think this can be looked at from a broader perspective. If God knew that people were going to choose to be separated from Him (the chief feature of hell –i.e. what makes hell, hell-defined as separation from God and the chief feature of heaven –i.e. what makes heaven, heaven-defined as union with Him), then would it be unjust for Him to create to begin with?

If people willingly reject that which is good and right and perfect, is it wrong for their existence to have occurred? What if they still prefer their own existence over not existing even if that means-or maybe even so long as that means-eternal separation from God?

 

[MrZetterlund]

Look up the book, “The Shack.”

 

[Atramdace19]

Hi my name is Mark and I will try to answer the question.

i would answer in which I will argue that God knows all and argue on the state of evil and freedom.It has been cited that God works like a referee on a game in which God knows what will happen. This is true because God is all-knowing in which he knows what will happen and who goes to where. So there is a problem if we really have freedom or whether we are simply God’s puppets.

I will go to my next point of the all-powerful. Now if God is all-knowing, it would seem that he can control us and change us directly. Now, this argument goes to the idea of freedom. Let us say that there was a man on the road walking one direction and ahead was a rich man who he can steal. Let us add that on the sky is a bird who sees the whole event and on what may happen.

We know that God is love and wants us to be good and follow him. So let us say that the thief indeed stole the man from the man but on the way, the bird takes the money leaving the man empty and hungry. Ahead is another rich man but the time he would meet this second man, he will be too weak to steal. The thief may contemplate his life before meeting the man or he may continue to do his old works.

this is a possibility of how God works. For the man what he does is free and the bird swooping seemed random. At the same time, God who is love acts in ways that we often feel as random. God would not act directly in a proud manner to indicate that we are bad. Thus, God is continuously intervening us in a subtle or random way to show us the Truth. God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He knows what will happen to the man in the end of his life but because he is powerful, he can subtly intervene the sad ending. One reason why some people go to hell is when people fail to act properly after these random intrusion that would reflect their lives.

I hope I answered your questions. this is one of my best shots:thumbsup:

 

[drbullfish]

In the real world, some people are going out there not knowing that their life is going to lead them away from God and then to hell. God is watching this knowing that they are going to be punished forever…

We’re humans. We perceive time and decision-making linearly. Choosing A over B leads to the choice of C or D, instead of E or F. Choosing C then leads to G or H, instead of I, J, K, L, M, or N. We make our choices, we hope we’re making the right ones, we try to live our lives as rightly as we can and pray that in the end we made the right ones so as not to be damned.

If you go about your life in the most honest, decent, and Christian fashion you possibly can, then you’ve done all you can really do. Love the Lord, love your fellow man, avoid mortal sin, and participate in the Sacraments and from there just trust in Him that it’ll all work out. (If predestination **were **to be equivalent to predetermination, worrying about it wouldn’t matter anyway )

 

[Houro]

Thanks for the great answers everybody, and the continued conversation.

All these theories appear to discuss the fact that we choose between right and wrong, but despite this, God knows that we will either choose heaven or hell. No matter what we do, those of us who are going to end up in hell were always going to go there from the beginning. God knew/knows this. Yes, during our life we have the option to choose between heaven and hell, and we appear to have that freedom (and to a point we do) but God knew that we would choose the right path or not. He knew that his interventions would or would not work and yet he let us continue to take that path knowing that it would lead us to hell. And if the visions of Saint Faustina or the children of Fatima is anything to go off, it isn’t a very nice place to be for eternity…

 

[davidv]

Thanks for the great answers everybody, and the continued conversation.

All these theories appear to discuss the fact that we choose between right and wrong, but despite this, God knows that we will either choose heaven or hell. No matter what we do, those of us who are going to end up in hell were always going to go there from the beginning. God knew/knows this. Yes, during our life we have the option to choose between heaven and hell, and we appear to have that freedom (and to a point we do) but God knew that we would choose the right path or not. He knew that his interventions would or would not work and yet he let us continue to take that path knowing that it would lead us to hell. And if the visions of Saint Faustina or the children of Fatima is anything to go off, it isn’t a very nice place to be for eternity…

It seems to me that you think that God’s knowledge causes our choices. Is this true? If so, why do you think so?

In all of the definitions of “knowledge” and “cause” that I have seen, there are none that remotely suggest that they can mean the same thing.

Based on this I have to say the the bolded parts above are not true statements.

1. God’s knowledge does not determine our choices
2. Free will is not an “appearance”, it is real.

 

[PJM]

=Houro;6778579]If God knows our past and our future and what we are going to do, then why did he create those people who are going to end up in hell? If God knew that these people were destined for hell, then why did he create them? He knows what their destination is, so why did he let them be created if there is no changing what their future holds…

This question is really getting to me, please help me with some answers…

GREAT QUESTION

First allow me to point out a couple of facts that you may not have recently considered.

1. God Created [means to make out of nothing] the entire Universe
2. The Universe Scientiest tell us consist of BILLIONS of stars and planets
3. These same folks also tell us that ONLY ONE; Planet Earth, can support life!
4. Obviously we are CREATED FOR A PRIMARY PURPOSE
5. Of the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of living things on Planet earth; ONLY ONE, humanity alone is giftd by God with a mind, intellect and freewill to direct our Eternal Souls. WHY?
6. All of these are SPIRITUAL THINGS are residing in a physical body.
7. We “get” our physical bodies from our physical parents… BUT [GOD HELPS]
8. They are unable to pass on to us our “Spiritual Things” BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUAL, not physical.
9. So why does God give us these Spiritual Things?
10. Isaiah 43: v.7 and v.21

[7] every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." v.21 "the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.

There is the answer! HUMANITY ALONE [no other thing can] Know God, choose to LOVE God and FREELY choose to Serve God.

God by choice will NOT deprive Himself of the OPPORTUNITY for each and everyone one ***of us to freely choose to Know, LOVE an Serve God in this life ***so that we can spend Eternity with Him in the Eternal life.

GOD WANTS US TO FREELY LOVE HIM BUT DOES NOT FORCE US IN ANYWAY TO DO SO.

 

[greylorn]

If God knows our past and our future and what we are going to do, then why did he create those people who are going to end up in hell? If God knew that these people were destined for hell, then why did he create them? He knows what their destination is, so why did he let them be created if there is no changing what their future holds…

This question is really getting to me, please help me with some answers…

This is a solid, straight-up and logical question, but I’ll bet that you don’t get many straight-up answers back. I tried to read a few.

There are three logical answers to your question.

1. 
   *]God does not know everything.
   
   I like this one because it would allow God to have creative thoughts, which an all-knowing entity cannot have.
   
   *]God did not create the human soul.
   
   I like this one too. Humans are so ordinary that it is hard to figure why any extra-ordinary entity would take the trouble to create them.
   
   *]There is no Creator, and the atheists are right.
   
   I don’t like this one, because it fails to answer essential questions about the beginnings of things, psychic phenomena, post-death information transfers, and quantum mechanics.
   
   You will not like any of these alternatives. I predict that because when I was first presented with them many years ago, I argued contrary to them, talked to priests, did whatever I could to keep my original, programmed beliefs unsullied by logical comparisons to the real world.
   
   One observation helped considerably.
   
   I realized that the Bible, the Catechism, the teachings of my revered Church and those of every other religion, from Greek pantheism to Mormonism, are all the words of men. That is their only known origin. Some of those men, or others following them, declared these words to be the words of the Creator. Again, words of men.
   
   There is a Bible which is certain to have been written by the Creator, and only by the Creator, which men cannot rewrite or revise according to their wishes. This Bible reflects the nature and intent of its Creator. It is even written in a common language accessible to all men who care to study it.
   
   Study that Bible, or spend the rest of your life being told what to believe by those who have never read it and never will.
   
   Finally, your OP contains this oddity, “…why did he let them be created?” Are you implying another level of creators working at God’s behest, doing the actual work of creation? My opinions, pretty much. But yours…?

 

[FelixBlue]

You are right to ask this question. People who defend the Roman Catholic (and, generally Christian) view on hell strike me as either illogical or not compassionate or poor observers of human nature.

It seems fairly clear that human beings are not entirely free (if at all). In scientific terms, we come into this world with a hand of genetic cards. If you have children (I have four), you know their personalities–the general way they respond to the world around them, including religion–are “set” from a very early age. That’s not to say there’s no plasticity in a person’s disposition, but it’s (at best) limited. For example, research in the past ten years has shown that a person’s sense of well-being/happiness is largely dependent upon his genetic disposition–estimates range between 40 to 60%.

You may wonder what this has to do with free will and hell. It points to the fact that the way we move through the world is not entirely free. Sometimes we feel faith; sometimes we don’t. There are some people who can “choose” faith; some who can’t–or struggle to. There are some who have a proclivity to alcohol or sex or–name your “sin”–and some who don’t.

If we are not entirely free, then we can’t choose–or not entirely.

The truth is our relation to God is more like the relation of a child to a parent crossing the road. While we have free will, in some limited sense, our knowledge is severely lacking. It’s enough if we use our freedom to hold God’s hand. But trust me, if we attempt to get away, God won’t let us, or not for long.

We are like the prodigal son. Do you really think he knew what he was getting into when he left the riches of his father’s house? Of course not! Had he known, he would have never chosen such a tremendous poverty and suffering. In that sense, he was ignorant; and where there is ignorance, there is not a full moral act–there’s no full choice or expression of freedom.

But look at the father! Despite the ignorance, despite the foolishness (and the father knew exactly what the son was up to!), he waited day after day at the end of that dusty road, waiting for his son to come home.

Did the son choose to come home? Not really. He didn’t choose to participate in the riches of his father’s house–only to be a servant.

But that’s not the reception he got! Riches! And now, having experienced the empty life (pleasure–of whores and partying) and poverty (pain), he truly knew the value of his father’s house!

It’s as the eastern fathers always said: God became man that man might become God.

The question of hell has bothered me ever since I became a Christian long ago and Catholic in the early 90s. The truth is, I have since left the Church (and Christianity) over it. Unfortunately, the Church rejected Origin’s teaching that said all creatures (including Satan himself!) would come to know the life of God.

As I said at first, you’re right to question. But remember: God is a loving father–to us all, even those of us who want to “get away”, if only temporarily.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

If God knows our past and our future and what we are going to do, then why did he create those people who are going to end up in hell? If God knew that these people were destined for hell, then why did he create them? He knows what their destination is, so why did he let them be created if there is no changing what their future holds…

This question is really getting to me, please help me with some answers…

I have a problem with this also on account of a personal event, which I’ve described a number of times on this site viz. the night my father died he turned up in my room, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this truly terrifying scream and then promptly disappeared.

But during the proceedings, at one point he said, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” I argued back, saying that couldn’t be right. He replied “Oh, it’s right, all right. You can see that from here”.

It reminds me of Christ’s prayer, John 17:9 “I am asking on their behalf; I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours”.

Yet later in the same exchange, he said “I was willing!”(to keep doing the things that sent him to Hell). He was married for twenty five years, and the whole time all he did was to wreck the family God had given him.

Then there is the fact God and the devil are at war. If the issue was so cut and dried, and God knew precisely who was going to heaven or hell, then why they are fighting? The devil continues to tempt all humans, but in particular those who belong to Christ.

In the end I have to assume, despite my father’s exclamation, “I always was doomed. I didn’t have any choice!” and accept his next comment, “Oh, it’s right, all right, you can see that from here.”

I don’t profess to understand it. But I do know that his will was also involved. He had 25 years to do something about it. And he did nothing, because he wanted to keep doing the cruel and stupid things he was doing. In that respect, it was his own decision.

 

[beehumble]

FelixBlue quotes the prodigal son story:
"We are like the prodigal son. Do you really think he knew what he was getting into when he left the riches of his father’s house? Of course not! Had he known, he would have never chosen such a tremendous poverty and suffering. In that sense, he was ignorant; and where there is ignorance, there is not a full moral act–there’s no full choice or expression of freedom.

But look at the father! Despite the ignorance, despite the foolishness (and the father knew exactly what the son was up to!), he waited day after day at the end of that dusty road, waiting for his son to come home.

Did the son choose to come home? Not really. He didn’t choose to participate in the riches of his father’s house–only to be a servant.

But that’s not the reception he got! Riches! And now, having experienced the empty life (pleasure–of whores and partying) and poverty (pain), he truly knew the value of his father’s house!"

BUT left out the MOST IMPORTANT PART:
The son REALLY did choose to go home to the father, AND HE FIRST OPENLY REPENTED OF HIS TRANSGRESSIONS:
His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son.’

IF we repent, even with our last breath (or our last earthly thought, some say) we are forgiven, by God’s Mercy, which is His greatest attribute.

And Satan will never repent - he hates God, even though God loves him.

We are free; where is God supposed to house those who hate Him? If the son came back home and said to the father, “I hate you” do you think he would be allowed to stay in the house? No way.

 

[PJM]

You are right to ask this question. People who defend the Roman Catholic (and, generally Christian) view on hell strike me as either illogical or not compassionate or poor observers of human nature.

It seems fairly clear that human beings are not entirely free (if at all). In scientific terms, we come into this world with a hand of genetic cards. If you have children (I have four), you know their personalities–the general way they respond to the world around them, including religion–are “set” from a very early age. That’s not to say there’s no plasticity in a person’s disposition, but it’s (at best) limited. For example, research in the past ten years has shown that a person’s sense of well-being/happiness is largely dependent upon his genetic disposition–estimates range between 40 to 60%.

You may wonder what this has to do with free will and hell. It points to the fact that the way we move through the world is not entirely free. Sometimes we feel faith; sometimes we don’t. There are some people who can “choose” faith; some who can’t–or struggle to. There are some who have a proclivity to alcohol or sex or–name your “sin”–and some who don’t.

If we are not entirely free, then we can’t choose–or not entirely.

The truth is our relation to God is more like the relation of a child to a parent crossing the road. While we have free will, in some limited sense, our knowledge is severely lacking. It’s enough if we use our freedom to hold God’s hand. But trust me, if we attempt to get away, God won’t let us, or not for long.

*****My dear friend in Christ; I CAUTION YOU, that the position stated above is NOT THE POSITION of the Catholic Church.

First God morally obligates Himself to make available to every human being SUFICIENT grace to: 1. Know God and 2. To freely chose to what is necessary to be saved. 3. The fact that so many do not choose God over there own man-made gods’: lust, power, riches, pride, envy, greed Ect. is “FREEWILL IN ACTION.”

We chose heaven; and WE choose Hell. God simply afirms our decisions.

It is a GREVIOUS ERROR to speculate that God would [or for that matter could because He is an Unchanging Perfect God] override humanities minds, intellects and freewill wich are given to us precisely to FREELY CHOOSE to know. love and serve God. ALL of these Gifts are “SPIRITUAL THINGS” that must come from God who is “Spirit and Truth”** [John 4:23-24]*****

**Isaiah 43: v. 7 and v. 21: **7] every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." v. 21 “the people whom I formed for myself
that they might declare my praise”.

Certainly humanity is naturally effected by invironment, education, and our associations. Yet freewill choices allow each of us to react in our own way. Twins raised in th same environments and with the same education are usually different as a result of there freewill choices.

Our FREEWIILS are so powerful that even God [His Choice] wil not override them.

Friend, may I humbly suggest you discuss this with your Pastor? It is a ERY SERIOUS MATTER.

Love and payers,**

 

[Asriel]

Despite somebody’s choice of good or evil, God knew what they were going to chose before they were created. If God knows that a person is going to chose evil, then why create them in the first place? .

Yes, but I know of someone who came to Christ in large part because of the evil he saw others freely commit of their own free will and damn themselves of their own free will. If it hadn’t been for his shock, outrage and repulsion at seeing such vile acts of humanity vs humanity, he says he never would have come around. God used the “lost” to open the eyes of his heart.

Truly speaking, no one can know the mind of God: “My thoughts are not your thoughts; My ways are not your ways.” All we can do is, through faith, trust in Him, for He is all righteous and just. If He weren’t, He wouldn’t be worth our belief in the first place!