If God knows all

[Houro]

First God morally obligates Himself to make available to every human being SUFICIENT grace to: 1. Know God and 2. To freely chose to what is necessary to be saved. 3. The fact that so many do not choose God over there own man-made gods’: lust, power, riches, pride, envy, greed Ect. is "FREEWILL IN ACTION."

But if God knows that certain people will go to hell, despite his grace, then he has not given them sufficient grace. The grace that he gives them, he knows that it will not be enough becuase he knows that they will go down the wrong path. Therefore it is not enough grace. Enough grace would be the amount that would give somebody enough of an option to go down the right path. If God knows that the grace that he has given won’t lead that person to Heaven then it wouldn’t be enough.

The only outcome that I can think of is that God **is **all knowing, but that the future, because it hasn’t been defined yet, is not part of that ‘all’…

I’m sorry I couldn’t reply to every post, but thanks to everybody for your (name removed by moderator)ut, it has continued to make me think. This issue hasn’t moved me on my faith, but has just made me think more. Please continue to tell me what you all think.

 

[fhansen]

But if God knows that certain people will go to hell, despite his grace, then he has not given them sufficient grace. The grace that he gives them, he knows that it will not be enough becuase he knows that they will go down the wrong path. Therefore it is not enough grace. Enough grace would be the amount that would give somebody enough of an option to go down the right path. If God knows that the grace that he has given won’t lead that person to Heaven then it wouldn’t be enough.

The only outcome that I can think of is that God **is **all knowing, but that the future, because it hasn’t been defined yet, is not part of that ‘all’…

I’m sorry I couldn’t reply to every post, but thanks to everybody for your (name removed by moderator)ut, it has continued to make me think. This issue hasn’t moved me on my faith, but has just made me think more. Please continue to tell me what you all think.

According to Catholic teaching, God gives us enough grace to have the option to go down the right path. Too much, and He interferes with our wills. Otherwise there’d be no place for our own moral responsibility-it’s erased or overridden. And that’[s what this is all about-*our choosing-with His help but without coercion-to do the right thing.

 

[Houro]

But if God knows that somebody is going to hell, then he already knows that the amount of grace that he is going to give to that person is not enough and is therefore going to go down the wrong path. Godf knows that when he creates this person, they are going to go to hell. If God knows all, then he knows that by creating person ‘A’ they will go to Heaven and that by creating person ‘B’, they will go to hell. He knew all this before the universe was made. Am I wrong?

 

[Asriel]

But if God knows that somebody is going to hell, then he already knows that the amount of grace that he is going to give to that person is not enough and is therefore going to go down the wrong path. Godf knows that when he creates this person, they are going to go to hell. If God knows all, then he knows that by creating person ‘A’ they will go to Heaven and that by creating person ‘B’, they will go to hell. He knew all this before the universe was made. Am I wrong?

He also knew that 1/3 of the angels would choose to rebel and damn themselves, but He created them anyway. That’s what you get when you give free will to autonomous beings. As to why He created those that would ultimately fall, that’s a God question, not for humanity to know. All we can know for certain is that His decisions are just.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

But if God knows that somebody is going to hell, then he already knows that the amount of grace that he is going to give to that person is not enough and is therefore going to go down the wrong path. Godf knows that when he creates this person, they are going to go to hell. If God knows all, then he knows that by creating person ‘A’ they will go to Heaven and that by creating person ‘B’, they will go to hell. He knew all this before the universe was made. Am I wrong?

From God’s point of view, it is probably axiomatic that the creation of intelligent beings means there will be an unavoidable possibility of rebellion. Demons were angels who could see God face to face so to speak, lived in heaven, had all the benefits of perfect goodness to draw upon, and yet they still rebelled.

This puts God in the position of having to decide what He’s going to do about it.

First of all they must be expelled from heaven. That’s an obvious first step, if heaven is going to stay heaven. From then on, they more than likely become completely depraved, as they turn more and more inwards upon themselves, united only in their hatred of God.

From that point they would create Hell without any real help from God. Hitler and the Nazis didn’t need any help in creating concentration camps or the Holocaust from the allies. They came out of their own ideology.

That God can see who will go to Hell is merely a by-product of His omnipotence. His only other choice is to create no beings with any real sort of free will.

The Lake of Fire however is, I believe, His creatioon. Hell is the devil’s; the Lake of Fire is God’s. And that is the final punishment, for there the devil and demons lose all their power over others, and are aware of nothing but their own suffering. And why should they continue to have power over others? Have they done something to deserve it?

Unfortunately that appears also to be the fate of the humans who are damned.

Why God is so harsh in this respect? I don’t know.

But since we’ve been warned about it, we can either heed the warning, or ignore it. That’s our decision, which we are free to make.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

If God knows our past and our future and what we are going to do, then why did he create those people who are going to end up in hell? If God knew that these people were destined for hell, then why did he create them? He knows what their destination is, so why did he let them be created if there is no changing what their future holds…

This question is really getting to me, please help me with some answers…

If God valued only the existence of those who conformed to his will, this would contradict the nature of love, which is God. God, being love, values the existence of all personal beings regardless of the choices we make. It would be fallacious to think that God does not value the existence of those in hell. If God did not value them, what would be the point of keeping them in existence?

 

[fhansen]

But if God knows that somebody is going to hell, then he already knows that the amount of grace that he is going to give to that person is not enough and is therefore going to go down the wrong path. Godf knows that when he creates this person, they are going to go to hell. If God knows all, then he knows that by creating person ‘A’ they will go to Heaven and that by creating person ‘B’, they will go to hell. He knew all this before the universe was made. Am I wrong?

We live in a world where evil is present. By creating beings and gifting them with free will, God created the possibility for evil to come about-the ingredients for it-but not evil itself. That is precisely where our choice enters the picture. Evil only exists because of the choices of beings such as angels or men. If free will is valuable at all, if it is a good, then the decision would be whether or not to create at all. And God deemed it good to create-and to include free will in the mix-for the ultimate good that will come out of beings who choose to do the right thing. And doing the right thing doesn’t mean to simply be “pure” in some vaguely understood manner-or to refrain from sin only-at least not unless that’s understood to mean that in the end, we’re to fully embrace goodness, to willingly, joyfully, love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength because we’ve come to know the reason for doing so.

While justice-or “hell”-is reserved for those who choose against right, we don’t even know exactly what that means. God created nothing bad. But badness exists and won’t be accepted. It’s put up with for now, by Gods patience in waiting for us to see the truth, but why would we think it should be endured forever? We have to look around and admit to the reality of evil, see it as something totally out of place or disordered in the universe, and reject it in favor of the good. And how is it wrong for God or anyone else to demand this?

Hell simply means that evil-that which God did not create- will be dealt with justly. And we’ll know that in the end. But according to Scripture God desires none to perish and according to Catholic teachings His love trumps His justice. In any case, as with heaven, we won’t truly know what hell means until the end. We only know that God can be expected to do everything right, everything according to love.

 

[Speramus]

Despite somebody’s choice of good or evil, God knew what they were going to chose before they were created. If God knows that a person is going to chose evil, then why create them in the first place?

Comments I knew or suspected to be untrue from atheists, anti-Christians and anti-Catholics prompted me to devote more thought to the Faith I had abandoned. Without their unwitting help, I might have been lost.

On more exalted level, I’ve read about saints exercising heroic virtue in horrific conditions. If it weren’t for the oppression of evil men, those saints might have been less saintly. Even the wicked can unintentionally contribute to some good result.

 

[Seeker2010]

[It is a GREVIOUS ERROR to speculate that God would [or for that matter could because He is an Unchanging Perfect God] override humanities minds, intellects and freewill wich are given to us precisely to FREELY CHOOSE to know. love and serve God.

Here is where I part company with organized religion.

You are convinced, absolutely convinced that if you do not follow the teachings of the Catholic church that, immediately and irrevocably upon your death, you are going to an eternity in torture. And that said torture is irrevocable, even if you renounce your former way of life and accept whatever God expects of you.

Free will is not free if there is an arbitrary (and unwaivable) deadline, especially when reasonable people can investigate the same information and come to differing conclusions.

First, in order for your church to have even the slightest bit of knowledge about the almighty that is not available to the rest of us, you have to abandon the idea that God is unchanging, as the very foundation of your church teaches of a first covenant, and a second.

Second, despite your claims that your church is in possession of all knowledge of God (and is infallible), there is simply too much room for doubt for any reasonable claim that we humans are fully informed as to the true nature of reality. If you and I enter into a contract and I have failed to disclose materially important information to you, the contract is null and void, and the disagreements on this very board of people who claim the same faith nullify the idea that we are truly fully informed.

Were we truly, openly, and fully informed, this board would not exist, for there would be absolutely no reason to debate, question, or discuss. Many of your brethren, indeed you may be amongst them, will argue that those doubts and questions are merely the work of demons attempting to create doubt and dissent. But I look at it like this: If we humans are civilized enough that (for the most part) we do not allow such chicanery in our day to day business and obligations, surely a God of Love and Justice would not, either, for I cannot, and I do not believe that we can be more just than God.

I believe in God, just not your version. Yours is vengeful, petty, and cruel. Mine is kind, loving, and forgiving. I prefer mine.

 

[ddarko]

This is a solid, straight-up and logical question, but I’ll bet that you don’t get many straight-up answers back. I tried to read a few.

There are three logical answers to your question.

1. 
   *]God does not know everything.
   
   I like this one because it would allow God to have creative thoughts, which an all-knowing entity cannot have.
   
   *]God did not create the human soul.
   
   I like this one too. Humans are so ordinary that it is hard to figure why any extra-ordinary entity would take the trouble to create them.
   
   *]There is no Creator, and the atheists are right.
   
   I don’t like this one, because it fails to answer essential questions about the beginnings of things, psychic phenomena, post-death information transfers, and quantum mechanics.

1. 
   Nice list but you are unfortunately constraining your solution by leaving out the correct solution
   
   What happened to
   1. God can know everything and is still ok to create persons who would choose hell
   which I think is clearly the correct solution
   

   If God knows our past and our future and what we are going to do, then why did he create those people who are going to end up in hell? If God knew that these people were destined for hell, then why did he create them? He knows what their destination is, so why did he let them be created if there is no changing what their future holds…
   
   This question is really getting to me, please help me with some answers…

   Firstly, I would not use the term ‘‘destined’’ to hell since that seems to indicate a lack of free will and more of a Calvinist view. Never the less, I would take the liberty of reformulating your question as, ‘‘given God knows some will not make it to heaven, why create them?’’
   
   The major problem with your question is that you assume to NOT EXIST is better than TO EXIST and be in hell. There is no reason to assume that it is true. God loves a person even if the person is in heaven or hell. His love is eternal. Therefore, I would argue that to not experience God’s love by not existing is the worst possible thing to happen.
   
   God Bless

 

[MindOverMatter2]

1. God can know everything and is still ok to create persons who would choose hell

God Bless

I think there is another solution as well as this one. There is nothing in Gods knowledge of true historical events that God has not already given reality to. How can God know that which God has not done. Gods creative action and knowledge is simultaneous. Thus to say that God can choose not to create somebody as a response to “true knowledge” of something that does not exist, seems to be a fallacy. God only knows that somebody chose hell because God timelessly created them. Had God not timelessly created them, he would have no knowledge of them.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

 

[aperture]

The major problem with your question is that you assume to NOT EXIST is better than TO EXIST and be in hell. There is no reason to assume that it is true. God loves a person even if the person is in heaven or hell. His love is eternal. Therefore, I would argue that to not experience God’s love by not existing is the worst possible thing to happen.

God Bless

Would you rather have surgery while awake or while under anesthetic (unconscious)?

Your idea that eternal suffering is better than simply not being is hard for me to understand.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Would you rather have surgery while awake or while under anesthetic (unconscious)?

Your idea that eternal suffering is better than simply not being is hard for me to understand.

It contradicts the nature of existence to say that creasing to exist is preferable to any metaphysically possible state of being.

 

[aperture]

It contradicts the nature of existence to say that creasing to exist is preferable to any metaphysically possible state of being.

Are you saying that it’s impossible to not exist, or that it’s impossible for anything to be worse than non-existence?

 

[ddarko]

Would you rather have surgery while awake or while under anesthetic (unconscious)?

Your idea that eternal suffering is better than simply not being is hard for me to understand.

Well, going by your same example if you did not exist, there would be no point in discussing surgery anyways lol. So I don’t think its the best analogy.

But on a serious note, as I said, eternal suffering is better than not existing because one still feels God’s love whether they are in Heaven or Hell.

Also, it will contradict God’s nature (LOVE) to not create a person because he or she will deny him

I will try to elaborate the above points here with some examples of human experience like you did But do keep in mind that these are analogies and do not capture perfectly of how God works

Ex:

If you truly love an idea, the most perfect thing to do is to make it real. For an example, if you love a fictional character, you wish that character was real. God loves the person so much that he makes that contingent person real.

Now you might say that the person doesn’t want God’s love. But love does not depend on what the person believes as to what he wants. The best analogy here is that of a mother giving birth to her child. No loving mother would decide to abort or murder her child after giving birth because of some deficiency of the child. The mother would rather give birth and LOVE him/her as much as she can. The child might not appreciate the love of the mother but it is NO WAY the mothers fault. There is no greater joy on this earth than to be loved unless the person is really messed up psychologically

So to ask God to not create a person because he/she is going to deny God and go to hell anyways is logically impossible for God. God is love. He cannot completely LOVE that person and NOT choose to create him/her.

Please let me know if that did not clarify matters

God Bless

 

[aperture]

Well, going by your same example if you did not exist, there would be no point in discussing surgery anyways lol. So I don’t think its the best analogy.

But on a serious note, as I said, eternal suffering is better than not existing because one still feels God’s love whether they are in Heaven or Hell.

Also, it will contradict God’s nature (LOVE) to not create a person because he or she will deny him

I will try to elaborate the above points here with some examples of human experience like you did But do keep in mind that these are analogies and do not capture perfectly of how God works

Ex:

If you truly love an idea, the most perfect thing to do is to make it real. For an example, if you love a fictional character, you wish that character was real. God loves the person so much that he makes that contingent person real.

Now you might say that the person doesn’t want God’s love. But love does not depend on what the person believes as to what he wants. The best analogy here is that of a mother giving birth to her child. No loving mother would decide to abort or murder her child after giving birth because of some deficiency of the child. The mother would rather give birth and LOVE him/her as much as she can. The child might not appreciate the love of the mother but it is NO WAY the mothers fault. There is no greater joy on this earth than to be loved unless the person is really messed up psychologically

So to ask God to not create a person because he/she is going to deny God and go to hell anyways is logically impossible for God. God is love. He cannot completely LOVE that person and NOT choose to create him/her.

Please let me know if that did not clarify matters

God Bless

Maybe this represents a basic divide between us on this issue, but I don’t agree. I really have trouble saying that life is always worth living; I’ve read testimonials from depressed people that say things quite to the contrary [the author David Foster Wallace is, I think, an example of this].

But I am interested in what exactly your concept is of Hell. Is it a place where, as I’ve read some people here describe it, God’s love actually hurts souls because they can’t reciprocate?

 

[ddarko]

Maybe this represents a basic divide between us on this issue, but I don’t agree. I really have trouble saying that life is always worth living; I’ve read testimonials from depressed people that say things quite to the contrary [the author David Foster Wallace is, I think, an example of this].

But I am interested in what exactly your concept is of Hell. Is it a place where, as I’ve read some people here describe it, God’s love actually hurts souls because they can’t reciprocate?

For the first part of your reply, even if you find it hard to understand why someone should live through suffering, it would still be contradictory for God to not create those who go to hell because of his LOVE for them.

About the depression part, for about 3 years of my life I suffered depression. I can truly tell you that at that time, there were moments where I really considered if it was worth living. I can tell you now that I am not depressed lol that it clearly was. One thing I did realize as I came out of it was that I had no faith in God during that time. I had lost hope. And the truth is, if we do not trust in God, we have nothing to hope for. For me it was something that happened in my life that caused it. I was so sure that everything was over after that. I forgot that God can always bring good out of bad things. So in honesty, I do not think life is at any point not worth living. The only reason to feel so is a misconception due to our fragile minds. It is like a person who forgets that his/her spouse loves him/her because he has gotten so caught up about whats going down in his job. Sometimes we just have to step back and realize what we have and there are those who loves us and definitely at least one

Anyways, that was a sidetrack, now to your final question on Hell, I believe that it is a place where God loves the people in it, but their nature has become so warped from God’s nature that his love becomes torture. So basically, as we sin, our natures become more and more unlike God’s. Sin is a choice we make to side with God’s nature or against it. In death, our nature becomes complete in either direction towards God’s nature or totally opposite to it. Thus in hell, God’s love feels totally painful.

The best example I can give (which I might have mentioned somewhere else on this forum too) is that of sexual sin. God has revealed in his goodness the proper nature of sexual acts. But for someone who has been engaged in sexual sin, this feels like torture to follow it. It feels all wrong and at times like the person is going through ultimate suffering to deny oneself to SIN. Now the feeling in hell can be taken as this taken to its maximum level.

Do let me know if you need any more clarification

God Bless

 

[Houro]

Would you rather have surgery while awake or while under anesthetic (unconscious)?

Your idea that eternal suffering is better than simply not being is hard for me to understand.

I have to agree here. If hell is what some have said it to be, a place of eternal damnation and pain, then I would certainly choose to not exist than to be there for all eternity. To not feel love or pain is better than only feeling pain.

I don’t understand that if God is love, then why is there a hell and why does God know that when he created man that some men would choose against his love? If God is love, then would his love not want to have people in hell and therefore not have created hell in the first place?

We have children because we understand that they have a chance of going to heaven. But what if you KNEW that they would go to hell despite all your efforts. What if you KNEW that they would spend the rest of eternity in hell. Would that make you think again about having a child? Would it not be selfish to share your love with them for a small amount of time knowing the eternity of pain they would suffere thereafter?

 

[Asriel]

I don’t understand that if God is love, then why is there a hell

Firstly, hell was created for the angels and not man. He gave more than enough grace to each and every person to desire Him, but some, through their own volition, still choose to turn away. There is no place for them with God, so hell is that place they’ve earned.

Suppose your son murdered someone. You would still love him, but if you are a righteous father, you would assent to him being put to death for it. That’s called justice, and that’s what God must do to the reprobate.

We have children because we understand that they have a chance of going to heaven. But what if you KNEW that they would go to hell despite all your efforts. What if you KNEW that they would spend the rest of eternity in hell. Would that make you think again about having a child? Would it not be selfish to share your love with them for a small amount of time knowing the eternity of pain they would suffere thereafter?

Would you still not have your child if you knew he would go to hell, but in the process, cause or incite others to attain Heaven? Which way is being selfish?

 

[Magnus467]

It is important to note that God does not operate in time. There is no before, there is no after, he is not limited by time. God, according to CS Lewis, views every moment for an eternity. Even this is not sufficient to explain it.

God is loving. Love is sacrifice and he sacrificed himself for us. Hell is the consequence of our own action. He loves us and gives us free will to be where we want to be.