The point is: the term predestination only refers to those who will actually be saved; it does not refer to those who God wills to be saved.
I think I understand where you are confused. You are confusing predestination with the Calvanist heresy of “double predestination”. Double predestination means God created and predestined certain people for heaven, and others for hell. Nothing they do effects their salvation as it was predetermined by God in advance. That is a heresy.The word “predestine” is used only three times in scripture. In no case is it ever used to convey the Calvinist heresy that God creates the vast majority of humanity as worthless trash predestined for the burn pile.
Histrionics is your only response?The word “predestine” is used only three times in scripture. In no case is it ever used to convey the Calvinist heresy that God creates the vast majority of humanity as worthless trash predestined for the burn pile.
Your analogy cannot stand up under scriptural scrutiny.
I am assuming that you are referring to 1 Tim 2:3-4 which reads:
In fact, the word prooridzo which is translated predestine appears six times:
That makes no sense. God does not see “into” the future. The future is present to God, just as the “present” is present to us.
Again, that makes no sense. Just because God is all knowing, and therefore knows what each person will choose, does not mean that the person making the choice “informs” God: it means just the opposite. God already knew what the person would do before they did it, so their choosing only confirmed what God already knew, it didn’t give Him knew knowledge.
God, who is all knowing, does not learn. He already knows.
God exists outside of time and views all of time at once. He can see those who are in the state of grace and those who are not. He does not see anyone believe before they believe. That would be a contradiction. God may see them as an unbeliever at one point in time; then, after they recieve the grace of faith and correspond to it, he will see them as a believer at another point in time. (Using the ruler example: On the first inch they were an unbeliever, but on the second inch they beleived.)
Nope. There are two levels of God’s Will. There is the antecedent will of God, which “wills all men to be saved” (most Bibles transated it as I quoted it), and the consequent Will of God, which allows some to be damned. The anticedent Will of God is what He “desires” - what he wills -, the consequent will of God, is what God allows.
Are you Catholic or Protestant? If you are Protestant I can understand your being confused. If you are Catholic read the Summa of St. Thomas where he discussed the anticedent will of God and the consequent will of God. You should be able to find it by doing a google search.
I am not confused.
I certainly understand that the Calvinism that sandusky believes in teaches the heresy that God predestines most men for damnation without regard to their demerits.I agree that God is omniscient, and that he knows who will reject the grace offered to them for their salvation. The damned end up in hell because they used their free will to choose unrepentance instead of repentance. They are not in hell because that was God’s perfect will for them. I believe we are saying the same thing here.
I don’t know what you are trying to say here. God’s perfect will for man is not contingent upon anything that man does. God’s perfect will for all men is the same – his perfect will is that all men should become partakers in the divine nature. All men were created by God to be with him for eternity.
It seems to me that you are putting unnecessary restrictions upon the word “predestine” – in your opinion, only those who enter into the heavenly beatitude can be said to be “predestined”. But scripture doesn’t place such a narrow range of meaning upon the word predestine. For example: The kings of the earth set themselves in array, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’ – for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place.
You are backpeddling, and resorting to philosophical gibberish.
USMC said:
That is just another pseudo-profound statement. Tell me, how does God know what He knows?
Where does your notion of antecedent will and consequent will come from? It is not from the Scripture.
You are confused. Spend more time in Scripture, and less time with Aquinas.
FYI, sandusky is a Calvinist.
Where does the Calvinist notion of God’s public will and God’s secret will come from?
Now I understand why he is so confused.
Question: If God knows, in advance, what a creature will do, how would he “learn” by seeing the creature actually do what He already knew he was going to do?
The dark world begins with Lucifer and ends with Hell. A conflagration of torment, confusion and total isolation felt with utmost emptiness; dying over and over again to meet the same redundant non-growth as a toy for demonic devices. As you thrust thy self-headlong into the void of helplessness where sorrow is so heavy it leaves an imprint in concrete. A movie that recently played across the nation named “The Cell “is symbolic to hell, yet hell is far worse. A chaotic realm where thirst is ongoing and just a drop of water would be a luxury. Vomit and clouds that suffocate, display a dreadful sight, a serpentine liar sells you out with not a charitable compassionate bone within. Furthermore, endless paths lead to boredom frustration and sinking emotions of no escape; where Goliath dark pillars of obsidian reign supreme await the faithless. Black holes that have never witnessed light drive boiling pools where crowds of cowards gather whose only desire is to beguile and gossip you into further misery. The bowls of hell encompasses fumes of odor reeking of decaying flesh which choke the nostrils. There are constant flames that wick around like insatiable mosquitoes, gnawing at you and never letting up. When you step into hell and remember how absorbed you where in the worldly things, memories of choice come to you as pony rides. In addition, you will recall the instances when you could have chose kindness instead of cruelty; as well the many times you denied Christ when you could have believed in Christ. You said to yourself, I’m me and selfish I always will be. All this increases the hell that you chose. My hope is you change and decide for Christ and repent now and forever, and not go the devil’s route. Make haste to Christ and compassion.
It seems that you have come to your senses regarding your unworkable scheme of how God knows what will come to pass. That’s good.
So, you won’t answer my question.
In this scenario - the quote above - God chooses who he will give grace to, like a lottery. Rather than creating some people spiritual (open to grace) and others not so. In effect God has creatd certain men unable to do so form the earlier definition of predestination, but the above quate simultaneousely implies all men are unable to while saying “He has not created man unable to do so”. Doesn’t make any sense.
I understand, and I grasp what you are saying, and I have shown you, with scriptural support, why it does not work.
Yes, God is a God of purpose, and intention. Read my above post to USMC.
cynic said:
Yes, I see why you would come to that conclusion. I was hasty in my keying of that response. Go to the second sentence, and read from there.
No, it is not like a lottery. God’s choices and decisions are not arbitrary, but purposed.
What is the difference? I’ll tell you. Creating some “open to grace” merely points out your desire to be in control of the situation and make the final choice all by yourself; but you are still not in control in your scenario, because, as you state, you must be "made open to grace.” That is a contingent situation, God does not saves those He has chosen by making them “open to grace,” but by declaring that they will believe, and they do so of their own will.
The latter.
You are philosophizing. A simple reality check will show you that it is just plain foolishness to assert that non-Christians have a “total inability" to do what is right. Obviously, not EVERY non-Christian is a murdering, child molesting Satan worshipper. This is one of the main problems I have with Calvinism - it demands blind acceptance of irrational philosophical ideas that contradict the ordinary reality that sane people must dwell in.