If God wanted to forgive our sins, why not just forgive them?

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Ericc, it is still worthwhile discussing such ideas. I believe in challenging the standard interpretations of scripture and I view everything through a cynical and sceptical eye. The Church, with all its mumbo-jumbo incantations and pious platitudes, has utterly failed to connect with me on any real level. That’s why I question things and come to my own conclusions.
hansard,

It is good to discuss such things. I started this journey to understand “catholic stuff” not too long ago. I was a cradle catholic with very understanding of the faith. I received my catechism lessons when I was 9 I think. And nothing much after that till recently. Your journey may be different from mine, but I believe we set out to know the “truth”, whatever that is. I reread C S Lewis Mere Christianity recently, I discovered a goldmine of wisdom before I got to the meaty sections, I was struck by what he wrote in the preface.

“I hope no reader will suppose that “mere” Christianity is here put forward as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions—as if a man could adopt it in preference to Congregationalism or Greek Orthodoxy or anything else. It is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can bring anyone into that hall I shall have done what I attempted. But it is in the rooms, not in the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals. The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. For that purpose the worst of the rooms (whichever that may
be) is, I think, preferable.
It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into your room you will find that the long wait has done you some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases
you best by its paint and paneling.
In plain language, the question should never be: “Do I like that kind of service?” but “Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular doorkeeper?” When you have reached your own room, be kind to those Who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. That is one of the rules common to the whole house.”

In closing, I sincerely hope that you can find what you seek. And I hope that you do not stop to open a door just because you disagree with a particular doorkeeper or dislike its paint and paneling.
 
Yes, but his earthly body was temporary. He doesn’t have that same body now; he has a glorified body, which has properties far beyond anything he had during his earthly existence.

You couldn’t really say that the body, transformed, is the same body as it was before.

To use an analogy: my Subaru car could be transformed into a better car by replacing everything in and on it, but it would only resemble my car then. The new, improved model would be faster, smoother, smell nicer…it would almost be miraculous (!).
It’s still a body. He is still true God and true man. He did not become human temporarily only to return to being only God. He will always be true God and true man. Once we could not see God. Now, all we have to do is look at Jesus. He is God in the flesh, God in terms we can understand.

When we receive our glorified bodies we will still be who we are. I may be improved in my capabilities, but it will still be the same old me-- I hope… I wouldn’t want to be anybody else!

When you think about puzzles like this, start from the premise that what God did was the perfect way to do it. Sure, he could have pricked his finger with a pin and that would have been enough to save mankind. So, you have to ask yourself why He did it the way He did. What is so compelling about dying in humiliation, poverty, and suffering that is so much better than any other way? Why would God choose to be a man and get himself nailed to a cross? It must have something to do with the nature of love. It must have something to do with showing us the way out of “this our exile” as the prayer says. It must have something to do with His saying, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”
 
You seem to have misunderstood my post. If you did understand it, you are falling back on the usual platitudes that mark you as a dedicated Catholic, but a poor participant in a philosophical forum.
Well instead of insulting and judging my character, perhaps you could pray for me to become a better participant on a “philosophical” level and I will be praying for you to become a better participant on a “compassionate” level.

May God Bless you abundantly and may He always provide you with all good things.

Peace.
 
Well instead of insulting and judging my character, perhaps you could pray for me to become a better participant on a “philosophical” level and I will be praying for you to become a better participant on a “compassionate” level.

May God Bless you abundantly and may He always provide you with all good things.

Peace.
👍
An excellent Christian response! Even Richard Dawkins appreciates the value of the Sermon on the Mount…
 
There was a sermon on a mount? Well, I’ll be…

The church must have been booked.

[And I did not judge your character; I merely criticized your ability to engage with the subject matter. If that’s cause for offence, then I’d say that you’re also easily offended. I have been criticized regularly around here, sometimes on the most spurious of grounds, by the most pious, judgemental “Christians”, but I just get over it and move on. If it makes you feel better, then I regret that you were offended by what I wrote.]
 
It’s still a body. He is still true God and true man. He did not become human temporarily only to return to being only God. He will always be true God and true man. Once we could not see God. Now, all we have to do is look at Jesus. He is God in the flesh, God in terms we can understand.

When we receive our glorified bodies we will still be who we are. I may be improved in my capabilities, but it will still be the same old me-- I hope… I wouldn’t want to be anybody else!

When you think about puzzles like this, start from the premise that what God did was the perfect way to do it. Sure, he could have pricked his finger with a pin and that would have been enough to save mankind. So, you have to ask yourself why He did it the way He did. What is so compelling about dying in humiliation, poverty, and suffering that is so much better than any other way? Why would God choose to be a man and get himself nailed to a cross? It must have something to do with the nature of love. It must have something to do with showing us the way out of “this our exile” as the prayer says. It must have something to do with His saying, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”
👍 In stark contrast to the hedonist’s pleasure-pain principle…
 
hansard,

It is good to discuss such things. I started this journey to understand “catholic stuff” not too long ago. I was a cradle catholic with very understanding of the faith. I received my catechism lessons when I was 9 I think. And nothing much after that till recently. Your journey may be different from mine, but I believe we set out to know the “truth”, whatever that is. I reread C S Lewis Mere Christianity recently, I discovered a goldmine of wisdom before I got to the meaty sections, I was struck by what he wrote in the preface.

“I hope no reader will suppose that “mere” Christianity is here put forward as an alternative to the creeds of the existing communions—as if a man could adopt it in preference to Congregationalism or Greek Orthodoxy or anything else. It is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. If I can bring anyone into that hall I shall have done what I attempted. But it is in the rooms, not in the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals. The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. For that purpose the worst of the rooms (whichever that may
be) is, I think, preferable.
It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into your room you will find that the long wait has done you some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. You must keep on praying for light: and, of course, even in the hall, you must begin trying to obey the rules which are common to the whole house. And above all you must be asking which door is the true one; not which pleases
you best by its paint and paneling.
In plain language, the question should never be: “Do I like that kind of service?” but “Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular doorkeeper?” When you have reached your own room, be kind to those Who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. That is one of the rules common to the whole house.”

In closing, I sincerely hope that you can find what you seek. And I hope that you do not stop to open a door just because you disagree with a particular doorkeeper or dislike its paint and paneling.
👍 Salutary advice…
 
I’ll just touch on a few thoughts.

First, God didn’t become incarnate just to die on the cross. I think it’s revealing that during the Creed we bow in reverence, not at the part where Jesus suffers and dies, but where he becomes incarnate. At that point, God joined himself fully and forever with us, his creatures, and gave us a High Priest forever before the Father.

As to why Jesus suffered and died (which, as has been pointed out, was fitting if not absolutely necessary), I always come back to the points of (a) demonstrating in the strongest possible way that sin leads to death, (b) demonstrating that God’s love for us knows no bounds, will stop at nothing to bring about our sanctification and union with him, and (c) demonstrating that the thing we fear most, suffering and death, has been conquered and is not something to be feared at all. Those are 3 powerful lessons that a simple “you are forgiven” could never teach.

God is not just, or even primarily, interested in forgiving our sins. He is interested in working within us, with our consent and cooperation, a complete transformation. He is interested in making us perfect and holy as he is perfect and holy. Everything he does should be viewed in this light.
:thumbsup:Irrefutable for anyone who believes in the priority of personal development rather than impersonal objects…
 
Hello,
I’ve said in another thread that I became at war with God over this very issue. I went so far as to tell God that he knows nothing about love. I am expected to forgive and to turn the other cheek. God demanded blood. I’m expected to forgive without demanding blood.
I became very angry because Jesus suffered and died for me.
Jesus even said "Go and find out what this means: “I desire mercy and not sacrifice.” Jesus who suffered and died for me said that.

After the fall of mankind, God largely became unknown. The Israelites didn’t know God very well. They thought God might like a golden calf. We see God keeping his distance from Moses but coming down on the later prophets and filling the virgin Mary. What was going on was a nation being prepared to become holy. It seems to me that God gave the Israelites certain observances to help to hold them. Did God really want lamb sacrifices?
I also tend to think that the house Israel was to become holy for the Lord’s mother. As soon as there was a holy woman God delivered Jesus to the world. Not many recognised him. God was largely unknown. Accusations of blasphemy were inevitable. Being tortured and put to death was inevitable.
Jesus was put on trial, beaten and flogged and put to death. Can you imagine someone doing that to a lamb sacrifice? Putting the sheep on trial and flogging it. So Jesus was no pagan sacrifice. The sufferings of Jesus has many lessons. He could have walked away but chose not to. Jesus presents the ultimate lesson of love. Through his sacred heart we find God himself. Jesus heals our wounds in his wounds. Every time we sin we wound our own person in some way. Jesus carried the evidence of sin on his body. Mocked, he had thorns pushed in to his head. Flesh torn from a dreadful beating. Nails driven through his hands and feet. His body carried the evidence of sins committed against him. The message is that God hurts. God burns because of the sins of mankind. Jesus is God’s cry for mankind to stop it.

Salvation. Saviour. Related words.

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation. So what’s that got to do with Jesus? Jesus is the saviour. Jesus gave his life for his friends. That’s what he said he would do.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Jesus had said that his words are everlasting life.

John 5:24
Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Jesus put his own life on his words. The Father agreed with him because Jesus is risen.

We see it said that salvation is in what Jesus did and not in what we do.

2 Corinthians 7:10
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Repentance is for us to do. Jesus can’t repent for us. So there is something for us to do. Look at what sin did to our greatest friend. We should be horrified.

God bless
A fine post, Steve, for those who believe in the power of unselfish love…
 
Irrelevant remarks.
You think so?
👍

(I’ve worked out this whole smiley thing, and what a powerful tool it can be in adding to the weight of one’s argument. Include a smiley, and you suddenly look like you are in command of the discussion. Even vacuous, platitudinous comments can then be regarded as compelling and convincing.)

Oops…nearly forgot:👍

And just for good measure:👍
 
Hi again everyone, and thanks for your replies. It seems that the general consensus on here is that
  1. It was not necessary for Jesus to suffer and die, only that his blood be shed. So a drop would have done as well as all of it and
  2. God needed a blood sacrifice because he is perfectly just.
I’m interested in talking more about this second point. Why did God need a blood sacrifice? Why does blood make justice, or atonement, or forgiveness?
 
Hi again everyone, and thanks for your replies. It seems that the general consensus on here is that
  1. It was not necessary for Jesus to suffer and die, only that his blood be shed. So a drop would have done as well as all of it and
  2. God needed a blood sacrifice because he is perfectly just.
I’m interested in talking more about this second point. Why did God need a blood sacrifice? Why does blood make justice, or atonement, or forgiveness?
I disagree with the above. God is in no way subject to necessity. In the first place, He did not have to redeem us at all. But having willed to do so, He certainly could have done so in any way He chose. No one is making rules for God, He is the rule maker. It is false to assert that it was necessary for Jesus to shed His Blood, whether one drop or a hundred.

Jesus chose to redeem us the way He did. It seems to me part of the reason is to guard against enemies. Every initiatory society puts in guards, to keep away those who would come to them seeking their own aims rather than those of the society. The Church is an initiatory society. Her founder built in to her very foundational structure, His Crucifixion, and He said that whosoever wished to be His disciple would have to take up their own cross daily and follow Him. Thus there is established, the Cost. The Cost of our salvation is Jesus dying on His Cross. The Cost of discipleship is taking up one’s own cross and following Him. Without that Cost, the Gospel would attract many who were unwilling to sacrifice their own wills, and that is not the reason Jesus came. Jesus came to help us to surrender completely to God, and surrender implies sacrifice.
 
Ericc, it is still worthwhile discussing such ideas. I believe in challenging the standard interpretations of scripture and I view everything through a cynical and sceptical eye. The Church, with all its mumbo-jumbo incantations and pious platitudes, has utterly failed to connect with me on any real level. That’s why I question things and come to my own conclusions.
Hello Hansard.
You say that the church has failed to connect with you. I don’t think it has failed to connect with you. I think you have failed to connect with the church. I find myself thinking of a brick that has fallen away from a building. There is a verse of scripture I could use there.

I have read some of your posts. Jesus rose from the dead and then retained his body by being transformed. Jesus said we are to become as the angels in heaven. So what point then this body?
Jesus will return as the Judge. What will people make of him when they see the scars in his hands?
Jesus had said that no one can get to the father except through him. He also said we can’t enter heaven unless we are born again. That seems impossible for some because they die without getting to hear about Jesus. Would you like to have not heard about Jesus?
On the last day many who have not heard may be born again through Jesus’ say as the Judge so that they may enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Does it make sense to you?
Had you a choice what would you choose? To not have heard about Jesus? Or would you choose to be among the privileged who have?
 
Hi again everyone, and thanks for your replies. It seems that the general consensus on here is that
  1. It was not necessary for Jesus to suffer and die, only that his blood be shed. So a drop would have done as well as all of it and
  2. God needed a blood sacrifice because he is perfectly just.
I’m interested in talking more about this second point. Why did God need a blood sacrifice? Why does blood make justice, or atonement, or forgiveness?
Hello Poseidon.
Did you see the election process for the new pope? They tied a ribbon round the doors and sealed them so that no outsider could enter.
In the days of knights in shining armour, when Poseidon was King, they would carry messages from the king that were sealed.
Jesus is the door and the King and the seal is his precious blood that was shed as the ultimate sacrifice of love. Shed till nothing left. What love. The covenant in Christ is sealed. God’s promise of salvation has been at great cost him.
 
Hello Hansard.
You say that the church has failed to connect with you. I don’t think it has failed to connect with you. I think you have failed to connect with the church. I find myself thinking of a brick that has fallen away from a building. There is a verse of scripture I could use there.

I have read some of your posts. Jesus rose from the dead and then retained his body by being transformed. Jesus said we are to become as the angels in heaven. So what point then this body?
Jesus will return as the Judge. What will people make of him when they see the scars in his hands?
Jesus had said that no one can get to the father except through him. He also said we can’t enter heaven unless we are born again. That seems impossible for some because they die without getting to hear about Jesus. Would you like to have not heard about Jesus?
On the last day many who have not heard may be born again through Jesus’ say as the Judge so that they may enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Does it make sense to you?
Had you a choice what would you choose? To not have heard about Jesus? Or would you choose to be among the privileged who have?
:confused:
 
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Poseidon:
I’m interested in talking more about this second point. Why did God need a blood sacrifice? Why does blood make justice, or atonement, or forgiveness?
First, I don’t think that blood was the necessary sacrifice. Before you jump all over me, hear me out. The Jews practice of blood sacrifices was inspired by God. Why? It might well have been simply because God wanted to prefigure what He planned to do in sending His Only Begotten into the world to be our blood sacrifice. But just because God did in fact make Himself a blood sacrifice does not necessarily mean that it was the only way He could have done it, that is, save us from our sins. I would speculated that the smallest gesture on His part as the innocent victim would have been quite enough being that it came from the Almighty God.

Also, it seems reasonable that for an innocent victim to make up for the sins of mankind, that victim must suffer the worst of the just consequences of sin, and that is death itself. IMO, which is purely speculative, dying in his sleep would have satisfied this requirement, if indeed it is a requirement.

So why did He decide to suffer humbly and horribly and to die on the Cross? I think it relates to the condition mankind is in and the fact that simply opening the gates of heaven for anyone who would be sorry was not far enough in the Eyes of Love. Man, as we have seen down through the ages and probably in our own lives as well, repents one day, and sins the next, so it’s not a done deal that mankind will repent once and scamper off to eternal bliss. The atonement on the Cross did not take away the effects of sin. Concupiscence still exists. Suffering still exists. Hunger still exists. Homelessness still exists. Illness still exists. Men are still able to commit sin. Wars still exist. Imprisonment still exists. Man’s inhumanity to man still exists. That’s an awful lot of “still exists” to contend with even after the Almighty makes His supreme sacrifice! I think herein lies the answer.

We recognize in the Hail Holy Queen that we are “banished children of Eve” in a place of “sighs, mourning and weeping.” What a horrible place! Not so? Well, maybe that’s because we live in a land of great wealth that isolates us from a direct look at the horror all around us, from the millions who die of disease and starvation each year in other countries, to the millions who languish in prisons, to the billions of poor around the world. 1.2 billion people still live in extreme poverty—below $1.25 a day—and nearly two and half billion people live on less than $2 a day.* And even in our luxury with its thousands upon thousands of available distractions, we, too, find sorrow and suffering in this life, despite our efforts to anesthetize ourselves from feeling it.

God saw all this. He saw how nearly hopeless our condition was. He loved us with such a passion that He figured out a plan by which He could bring the maximum number of Eve’s children back from exile into the Paradise He had always planned for them. He knew the difficulty we would be facing even after His heroic sacrifice, and so He decided on a course of action that would show us in human terms how we are to live and how we are to walk the road to Paradise, that is to our deaths, the last effect of sin that we must all experience in this life.

He put us all on the road to Calvary by instructing us that there is no way out of our present difficulties except by acceptance of the hardships and suffering that are integral to our fallen human condition. He showed us how. He said we must keep God’s commandments and follow Him. His passion and death was more than just the sacrifice to atone for our sins, it was the example for us of how we must face adversity, relying on God to see us through. I don’t mean that he wants us all to die on a Cross, only that He wants us all to learn how to love unselfishly as He did. And don’t worry, we’ll all die!. Carrying our own personal cross, perfectly fitted to us, and following Him, is the way to Paradise. The gates of heaven are open, but the way is narrow and difficult. There is suffering and sorrow along the way, but by uniting it with His passion and death, we transform it into joy and give it redemptive value.

In Jesus we have the perfect example of God’s love given to us in human terms that anyone can understand (He who sees Me, sees the Father). Whenever we lose our way, we need only look back to the Cross and Jesus on it.

Disclaimer: I am not a theologian. My thoughts and speculations are my own and do not necessarily reflect the teaching of the Catholic Church. Hopefully, they are not contrary to anything taught by the Church, If something is contrary, I will be happy to correct it. .
 

He came into the world as Adam did - No original sin and in the friendship of God. Unlike Adam, he lived his entire life in that friendship resisting all attempts by the serpent to trip Him up. Because He did this, death could not hold Him. But in order that we might know this He had to die - publicly and thoroughly. Then His resurrection and appearance to the Apostles and others would be “proof positive”, not just of His divinity, but of the veracity of all that He said and did in His ministry among us. Also it would show that the sin of Adam, through which death entered the world, no longer held sway.

Peace
James
John 10:10. He came so that the sheep may have life, and have it more abundantly.

Sin was always seen superstitiously as the cause of disease by the Jews of his time (Who sinned, his mother or father?). Consequence of that was a persecution of the lame and poor; and self destruction by the commission of sin in the spiritually sick.

Naturally it would follow for them that healing was needed. Like the prophets said, they had become sick. The worst form of that sickness was literal bloodthirst, the need to kill and drain others of their life’s blood, including the means of sustaining their lives (plundering the houses of widows and orphans). Ironically, if evil doing is along the continuum of physical disease, then it should result in no more condemnation than lameness, or blindness (indeed, none at all). It is a simple condition of the mind or soul. The sacrifice of Jesus and of all who uphold the cross therefore protects the poor and lame and satisfies the bloodthirsty. (The fact that he uses blood as a sacrament should remind all that we are one no better than another. Though the evil are evil, they have been satisfied and can no longer destroy the lame in spirit).

His innocence is derived from his Godhood. Thus he reveals that the evil want pure, innocent blood. Sheep, on the other hand, don’t normally drink blood (as far as I know, they graze). Jesus feeds them a very expensive grain. The net effect is the same for each. Heaven is a continuation of life for all who are nourished by Him.
 
Yes, but his earthly body was temporary. He doesn’t have that same body now; he has a glorified body, which has properties far beyond anything he had during his earthly existence.

You couldn’t really say that the body, transformed, is the same body as it was before.

To use an analogy: my Subaru car could be transformed into a better car by replacing everything in and on it, but it would only resemble my car then. The new, improved model would be faster, smoother, smell nicer…it would almost be miraculous (!).
HIS body is still the same as it was and is. Yes it is transformed and glorified as the Bible states; but, when HE ascended he didn’t lose his body. That is what I was trying to get.
 
I disagree with the above. God is in no way subject to necessity. In the first place, He did not have to redeem us at all. But having willed to do so, He certainly could have done so in any way He chose. No one is making rules for God, He is the rule maker. It is false to assert that it was necessary for Jesus to shed His Blood, whether one drop or a hundred.

Jesus chose to redeem us the way He did. It seems to me part of the reason is to guard against enemies. Every initiatory society puts in guards, to keep away those who would come to them seeking their own aims rather than those of the society. The Church is an initiatory society. Her founder built in to her very foundational structure, His Crucifixion, and He said that whosoever wished to be His disciple would have to take up their own cross daily and follow Him. Thus there is established, the Cost. The Cost of our salvation is Jesus dying on His Cross. The Cost of discipleship is taking up one’s own cross and following Him. Without that Cost, the Gospel would attract many who were unwilling to sacrifice their own wills, and that is not the reason Jesus came. Jesus came to help us to surrender completely to God, and surrender implies sacrifice.
👍 Love certainly entails self-sacrifice but giving one’s life for others doesn’t always entail dying. Sometimes living for others is more arduous because it necessitates suffering for a long time, even many years like some of the saints and social reformers. In the case of Jesus execution was the inevitable outcome of His revolutionary teaching which condemned the self-righteous hypocrites who exploited the poor, treated women and children as inferior to men and condemned everyone who didn’t conform to their interpretation of the Scriptures. Neither the Roman empire nor the Judean monarchy nor the Jewish priesthood tolerated dissent and punished rebels with crucifixion, decapitation or stoning to death.
 
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