If God were to contradict Himself

[steph_86]

Hi everyone,

I have pondered this question for some time and I have not been able to find a satisfying answer. There might not even be a definite answer at all.

The first question that I have is how to distinguish between being, existence and essence.
The particular question that I have is whether God is present in hell. And in what mode of presence? I am not much of a theologian but I am interested in the question.

In my understanding, God is God because He is; but He is because He Loves. Everything that exists, exists because He loves it, that is, He sees it as a Good. Thus, everything that exists, exists because God maintains it in existence. To be more specific, He maintains even the demons in hell in existence. Does this mean that God loves them, or rather that He sees their existence as a Good, since He cannot contradict Himself?

My other question is connected to the above, but is merely hypothetical because I know it cannot happen. God is perfect, He is perfect also because He is Love. His Love is perfectly rational and infinitely powerful. God foresees and foreknows everything that is to happen because He is all-knowing. Now, there is order in God’s thought because God is as said earlier, Perfect. What would happen - hypothetically - if something foreseen and foreknown by God would turn out not to happen? More concretely, what would happen if God would turn out to be wrong?

I was reading something on the internet and I was learning how the reason why Lucifer fell down from Heaven was because He not only sought to become God but also because he taught God was wrong in creating man. As such, the central reason why there is the battle between Heaven and Hell is because Lucifer wants to prove God wrong and become God himself. But if that were to be the case, if God were wrong, what would happen?

If God were wrong, as I understand, there would be disorder in His all-knowing Thought, and thus, also disorder in His Love. He would no longer want what He had always wanted, which is the Good, which is Himself? Would God become Hate since Hate is not only the opposite but also the disorder of Love (I think) ? Would that mean that He would cease to exist, since ordered Love is what maintains Him in his existence? And what about all created reality?

I know this is a difficult question but I have been pondering it for months. I would be glad if someone could help me.

Peace be to all of you,

 

[JDaniel]

Hi everyone,

I have pondered this question for some time and I have not been able to find a satisfying answer. There might not even be a definite answer at all.

The first question that I have is how to distinguish between being, existence and essence.

Only God can say, “I am a being whose essence is to exist.”

The particular question that I have is whether God is present in hell.

Good question. I don’t know. But someone earlier posted what Hell must be like, and I don’t think God is there. He described it as if God turns the lights off on those in Hell. And then, He turns all sound off. Can you imagine? Wandering around for eons and all you can do is think in darkness?

[EDIT]

In my understanding, God is God. -]because/-] He is; -]but/-] He is -]because/-] He Loves.

As a Catholic, it is important that you understand this stuff properly. Now, while I don’t speak for the Church, I’ll nonetheless, attempt to explain it.

God is Love. God is Existence. God is All-Powerful. God is All-Knowing. Add to these about 20, or so, more determinants (attributes) and you might begin to understand God.

God is nothing, nor does He do anything, “because.” There is no “because” where God is concerned. He is uncaused. His actions are uncaused.

Everything that exists, exists -]because/-] and he He loves it, that is, He sees it as a Good. Thus, everything that exists, exists because God maintains it in existence. To be more specific, He maintains even the demons in hell in existence. Does this mean that God loves them, or rather that He sees their existence as a Good, since He cannot contradict Himself?

Well, He probably cannot contradict Himself, but, that is not why there are sinners and demons in Hell. The Philosophy Forum is perhaps not the best forum to help you with the rest.

My other question is connected to the above, but is merely hypothetical because I know it cannot happen. God is perfect, He is perfect, also -]because/-] He is Love. His Love is perfectly rational and infinitely powerful. God foresees and foreknows everything that is to happen because He is all-knowing. Now, there is order in God’s thought because God is as said earlier, Perfect. What would happen - hypothetically - if something foreseen and foreknown by God would turn out not to happen? More concretely, what would happen if God would turn out to be wrong?

Probably, the universe would contract to a point of super-intense energy. It would be all over.

Thank God, He is God.

I was reading something on the internet and I was learning how the reason why Lucifer fell down from Heaven was because He not only sought to become God but also because he taught God was wrong in creating man. As such, the central reason why there is the battle between Heaven and Hell is because Lucifer wants to prove God wrong and become God himself. But if that were to be the case, if God were wrong, what would happen?

If God were wrong, as I understand, there would be disorder in His all-knowing Thought, and thus, also disorder in His Love. He would no longer want what He had always wanted, which is the Good, which is Himself? Would God become Hate since Hate is not only the opposite but also the disorder of Love (I think) ? Would that mean that He would cease to exist, since ordered Love is what maintains Him in his existence? And what about all created reality?

I know this is a difficult question but I have been pondering it for months. I would be glad if someone could help me.

Welcome to CAF’s Philosophy forum, Steph. I think you can rest easy. God is such immense Perfection that He Cannot be wrong, no matter who Lucifer thinks he is!

God bless you,
jd

 

[steph_86]

Jd, I appreciate your replying to my questions.

God Bless.

As far as causality in God, I thought it made sense to say that God exists because He is Love itself. It does not imply causality but I think only distinction in the order of being.
Although He did create out of Love, that is, caused by Himself. So, my distinctions to imply that Love or existence can exist apart from God. But I know they don’t. It simply means that Love is the final reality in God, in my humble understanding.

 

[The_Exodus]

Steph,

Welcome! I think this is a great question.

The answer I think is that yes, God “loves” all things. That is, he wills the good of their existence. Now, actually speaking, the “love” that God has is no different from his “justice” or any other attribute of his divine nature. This is because he is, in himself, absolutely simple. Yet he chose to express his nature in a multitude of effects in the universe. He is like a beam of light that makes many colors when reflected onto a canvass. His disposition toward the damned expresses his infinite justice, in which he abhors evil and sin which are deserving of his just wrath. Now, this itself - the damnation of the wicked - is a good, and so God does will this punishment as a fitting effect in the universe of his infinite simplicity.

To the second question, I believe you have answered it to yourself. God cannot be wrong, since he is God. All being exists only insofar as it is known by him to exist. Nothing, therefore, can exist that God does not know, since all existing things are only existing because God wills them to exist.

 

[tonyrey]

The particular question that I have is whether God is present in hell. And in what mode of presence? I am not much of a theologian but I am interested in the question.

Welcome, Stephen. God is not present in hell because hell is not a place! It is a person’s state of mind which results from the rejection of God. God is present in the power of choice which enables a person to reject God! But He is not present in the result of that choice because it is evil and therefore negative. The rejection of God is a negation with positive effects!

Hell is a state of isolation and separation from God which leads to frustration and misery but also to pleasure and satisfaction. No one would opt for undiluted misery unless it had its compensations. To be absolutely independent and master of our own destiny is the greatest temptation of all. We see how the lust for power motivates people to commit horrific crimes which cause much of the suffering in the world. Paradoxically, the diabolical reality of evil reveals our divine origin. Corruptio optima pessima! We can ascend to the peak of perfection but also descend to the depths of depravity. This is only possible if we have the power to reject our Creator but that presupposes a sharing in His power! There is no possible natural explanation…

Hell is evil but if it didn’t exist God’s love would be suspect because all love presupposes
self-sacrifice. If He limited our freedom His love would be limited! That is the supreme truth revealed by Jesus on the Cross: there are no limits whatsoever to God’s love - for all eternity…

 

[tskrobacz]

The particular question that I have is whether God is present in hell. And in what mode of presence? I am not much of a theologian but I am interested in the question.

My other question is connected to the above, what would happen if God would turn out to be wrong?
,

In response to Question 1 - you can create your own hell, right here, right now by separating yourself from God and trusting in yourself or others instead of trusting God - placing your own needs before the will of God. While God is always present in his creation, you choose to be the master of yourself/others only to discover how powerless and dark the world is outside the will of God. It is we that choose hell, not God. God is always calling us to his love, his goodness.

In response to Question 2 - wrong relative to who? If God is the absolute goodness that created all, that is all, then he is also a Good that has no opposite. It is only from our limited minds and perspective that we can even conceive of the almighty creator of all that is seen and unseen as making a mistake.