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1voice
Guest
I will not leave you orphans … I will send you the Holy Spirit … He will lead you into all truth.
… Jesus
If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?
- Status
… Jesus
R
rinnie
Guest
Now we are getting SOMEWHERE!!!:extrahappy: Now where did Jesus sent the Advocate. the Holy Spirit. Where did he appear on the day of Pentecost??
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1voice
Guest
… LOL! … another theological rabbit trail…
In my experience
The Holy Spirit is not limited to religion. He operates very effectively both within and with out religious tradition. " in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on ALL flesh"
… the Holy Spirit left the Temple in Jerusalem (the center of religious tradition) and took up residence in the hearts of those that obeyed Jesus command to wait. He will do the same for anyone that waits … any time … anywhere. … I have seen it. … with signs ( tongues, conviction of sin, prophecy, interpretation, miracles, love abounding …) …signs following … the same as Pentecost.
… rinnie, I have, on a regular basis for 40 years, (as I describe above) seen the Holy Spirit move on people to heal and restore in amazing ways … simply by acknowledging that Jesus is Lord and following the instructions in the Bible… no matter what background or denomination they come from… in my experience… denomination has nothing to do with the operation and the love of God through the Holy Spirit… Absolutely nothing.
D
ddarko
Guest
That is because this is not a theological issue.
What you are arguing here is about how your interpretation of Scripture does not match with the Catholic interpretation of Scripture. But that is obvious.
You are also explaining how your position is logically consistent. That too is somewhat obvious.
But what you seem to be forgetting is that your interpretation being logically consistent says nothing about whether your interpretation is true. So why should me or you yourself for that matter have any faith in your interpretation?
This is not a theological question since one is asking why believe in one persons theology as opposed to anothers.
What exactly did you witness as solid results?
How can you confirm truths about salvation? Have you died once? Visited the after life?
So no my friend. You have no way of confirming biblical truths with respect to salvation and God.
What the healing of the medical condition and other people’s addictions prove is that there is a God who answers prayers. It proves nothing more.
People get healed in other religions too. Does that mean their religion is true? NO. All it means is that there is a God who listens to prayers.
For all you know, your medical condition was cured due to a Catholics who prayed for the sick people in the world.
So what you have done here is read a lot in to the miracle that happened to you. What you should do is seek the God that helped you by using the REASON he gave you.
Actually, you believe in Jesus because of his death and resurrection. The only person who can claim such a feat. The belief in Jesus is therefore reasonable.
But my question to you is, how do you go from belief in Jesus to belief in anything ABOUT him?
How do you know he is the son of God as opposed to just a prophet, angel etc? If your answer is that you know by Scripture, then the question is, why do you believe in Scripture? How did you go from the resurrection of Christ and your belief in him to Scripture?
So NO. The fact that the blind see and lame walk does not tell YOU anything by it-self.
The only way you know is because YOU trusted in the authority of the Apostles to teach. You also trust the teaching authority of the Apostles instituted by the original 11 like St. Paul, St. Mark etc.
Now the question becomes, what makes you distrust the authority of the Apostles today? They descend from an unbroken line of Apostolic succession. But somehow, you don’t want to trust them anymore. Why?
The only reason I see is that they don’t agree with YOUR view of what is THE way to interpret scripture. But that is hardly a logical objection. Why should we believe that you are RIGHT to begin with?
So the question to you my friend is how can you refuse Apostles and cling on to your personal interpretation of Scripture? As I explained above, your personal experiences don’t give you any reason to think you are RIGHT other than a God exists who listens to prayers.
Yes, denominations or being a different religion has nothing to with whether you can receive the graces of God. Even Muslims, and other Pagans have miracles happen to them.
Why? Because the Catholic Church intercedes NOT just for the faithful but for EVERYONE.
What you have done here is make a false exclusive connection between the idea that miracles happen and it proving your position right. On the contrary, it doesn’t since what might be happening is what I said above.
So you have to stop reading more than what you logically can in to your personal experiences.
God Bless
I’ll phrase it as a question, since I would expect you have greater knowledge on this, but is it not a dogmatic understanding within the Catholic Church that the Bishop of Rome has universal jurisdiction?
Well, in a manner of speaking, this is true.
When one joins the Lutheran Church, they are asked a number of questions, amounting to a confession of faith. While I do not have it specifically in front of me, one of the questions is effectively, “Do you believe that the Lutheran confessions, the Augsburg confession and its Apology, the Large and Small Catechism, etc. rightly reflect the Christian faith?” To reject Lutheran doctrine is to not be Lutheran.
So, while individual intepretation may be the paradigm in Protestant settings, it is not so in Lutheranism. For one to be Lutheran, one must believe Lutheran doctrine.
Jon
P
PJM
Guest
I was HOPING to be supportive of what you shared so well,This is a common mistake of Paulists. They derive their doctrines primarily from reading Paul, and somehow cannot comprehend that other relevant passages have a context other than Paul.
God Bless,
Pat
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1voice
Guest
I realize that you believe that God only operates through Catholicism.That is because this is not a theological issue.
What you are arguing here is about how your interpretation of Scripture does not match with the Catholic interpretation of Scripture. But that is obvious.
You are also explaining how your position is logically consistent. That too is somewhat obvious.
But what you seem to be forgetting is that your interpretation being logically consistent says nothing about whether your interpretation is true. So why should me or you yourself for that matter have any faith in your interpretation?
This is not a theological question since one is asking why believe in one persons theology as opposed to anothers.
What exactly did you witness as solid results?
How can you confirm truths about salvation? Have you died once? Visited the after life?
So no my friend. You have no way of confirming biblical truths with respect to salvation and God.
What the healing of the medical condition and other people’s addictions prove is that there is a God who answers prayers. It proves nothing more.
People get healed in other religions too. Does that mean their religion is true? NO. All it means is that there is a God who listens to prayers.
For all you know, your medical condition was cured due to a Catholics who prayed for the sick people in the world.
So what you have done here is read a lot in to the miracle that happened to you. What you should do is seek the God that helped you by using the REASON he gave you.
Actually, you believe in Jesus because of his death and resurrection. The only person who can claim such a feat. The belief in Jesus is therefore reasonable.
But my question to you is, how do you go from belief in Jesus to belief in anything ABOUT him?
How do you know he is the son of God as opposed to just a prophet, angel etc? If your answer is that you know by Scripture, then the question is, why do you believe in Scripture? How did you go from the resurrection of Christ and your belief in him to Scripture?
So NO. The fact that the blind see and lame walk does not tell YOU anything by it-self.
The only way you know is because YOU trusted in the authority of the Apostles to teach. You also trust the teaching authority of the Apostles instituted by the original 11 like St. Paul, St. Mark etc.
Now the question becomes, what makes you distrust the authority of the Apostles today? They descend from an unbroken line of Apostolic succession. But somehow, you don’t want to trust them anymore. Why?
The only reason I see is that they don’t agree with YOUR view of what is THE way to interpret scripture. But that is hardly a logical objection. Why should we believe that you are RIGHT to begin with?
So the question to you my friend is how can you refuse Apostles and cling on to your personal interpretation of Scripture? As I explained above, your personal experiences don’t give you any reason to think you are RIGHT other than a God exists who listens to prayers.
Yes, denominations or being a different religion has nothing to with whether you can receive the graces of God. Even Muslims, and other Pagans have miracles happen to them.
Why? Because the Catholic Church intercedes NOT just for the faithful but for EVERYONE.
What you have done here is make a false exclusive connection between the idea that miracles happen and it proving your position right. On the contrary, it doesn’t since what might be happening is what I said above.
So you have to stop reading more than what you logically can in to your personal experiences.
God Bless
If you want to believe that everything from God filters through the RCC … and that the Roman Catholic Church, because of its belief that Papal/ Apostolic succession, gives it the right to assume all of your assertions … that is your right.
I also realize that my experience is no proof in your mind. Thats fine. Im not trying to convince you.
God said … I will write my laws on their hearts…
I believe that the Holy Spirit creates righteousness without requiring the constraint of any particular denomination
… "In the last days I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh.
'the kingdom of God is righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit… Against this … there is no law.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
Did anyone miss this:
[bibledrb]Romans 10:17[/bibledrb]
I didn’t go through all the pages… this is pretty simple, imho.
[bibledrb]Romans 10:17[/bibledrb]
I didn’t go through all the pages… this is pretty simple, imho.
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1voice
Guest
Did anyone miss this:
[bibledrb]Romans 10:17[/bibledrb]
I didn’t go through all the pages… this is pretty simple, imho.
D
ddarko
Guest
Wait a second here. I don’t just randomly believe. I believe in Catholicism because it is the only reasonable form of Christianity.
I am not making a random jump to Christianity from my personal experience or anything.
This is not a matter of rights. This is a matter of being rational vs. irrational.
The muslim is free to believe his religion yes. You are free to do yours and I am free to do mine.
BUT not all of them are true. I am just saying that yours is based on an irrational foundation.
You go from personal experience TO the Bible. But that does not follow.
All you get from Personal experience is PROOF that God exists. But you are reading more in to your personal experience than you logically CAN.
Proof of what? Proof that the Bible is true? Then THAT is FALSE.
Think about it for a second. I am not asking you to take blind leaps of FAITH here. I am just asking you to be REASONABLE.
If you met me and talked to me, you would KNOW I exist. BUT, would you necessarily know what I teach, what I stand for, which BOOK to read about me etc?
The above is merely Biblical verse interpreted to try and prove what you want.
It says nothing about whether the BIBLE is true in the first place.
Biblical quotes can’t prove that the Bible is the God’s word. Is this not clear to you? Supernatural truths such as salvation and God’s promises cannot be verified by personal experience either.
So with biblical truths on salvation, VERIFICATION is impossible. You have to arrive at the TRUTHS by using reason to find the right place to discover them. THEN you must have FAITH in them.
Yet here you are claiming that your personal experience validates Biblical truths on salvation. How? All you’ve told clearly says that God exists but it says nothing of whether you will be saved by FAITH alone or Faith and Works. Do you understand what I am saying?
I am not putting down your personal experience. I am merely telling you to take it for what it is. You can’t go from a personal experience of God to the Bible it self. That is not reasonable.
But to go from Personal experience to curiosity → then discover the existence of Jesus through reason (History) → then turn to the Apostles (a rational choice) is REASONABLE.
If you were building a house, would you ask an Engineer (Apostles) who has been accredited by Engineers before him (Apostles before him) or just pick a random person, give him a book on building houses and expect him to do a good job?
Which is REASONABLE?
God Bless
D
ddarko
Guest
Sorry but I don’t know what I am to take out of this? Perhaps you can elaborate?Did anyone miss this:
[bibledrb]Romans 10:17[/bibledrb]
I didn’t go through all the pages… this is pretty simple, imho.
Are you trying to say that the above passage justifies FAITH in the Bible because it is Christ’s word? If so, you are just going circular. You have already assumed the authority of the BOOK you are about to PROVE as authoritative. So you haven’t proved anything.
Or did you mean to prove something else?
God Bless
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1voice
Guest
If you follow the instructions … you will experience the truth … and the truth will set you free.Wait a second here. I don’t just randomly believe. I believe in Catholicism because it is the only reasonable form of Christianity.
I am not making a random jump to Christianity from my personal experience or anything.
This is not a matter of rights. This is a matter of being rational vs. irrational.
The muslim is free to believe his religion yes. You are free to do yours and I am free to do mine.
BUT not all of them are true. I am just saying that yours is based on an irrational foundation.
You go from personal experience TO the Bible. But that does not follow.
All you get from Personal experience is PROOF that God exists. But you are reading more in to your personal experience than you logically CAN.
Proof of what? Proof that the Bible is true? Then THAT is FALSE.
Think about it for a second. I am not asking you to take blind leaps of FAITH here. I am just asking you to be REASONABLE.
If you met me and talked to me, you would KNOW I exist. BUT, would you necessarily know what I teach, what I stand for, which BOOK to read about me etc?
The above is merely Biblical verse interpreted to try and prove what you want.
It says nothing about whether the BIBLE is true in the first place.
Biblical quotes can’t prove that the Bible is the God’s word. Is this not clear to you? Supernatural truths such as salvation and God’s promises cannot be verified by personal experience either.
So with biblical truths on salvation, VERIFICATION is impossible. You have to arrive at the TRUTHS by using reason to find the right place to discover them. THEN you must have FAITH in them.
Yet here you are claiming that your personal experience validates Biblical truths on salvation. How? All you’ve told clearly says that God exists but it says nothing of whether you will be saved by FAITH alone or Faith and Works. Do you understand what I am saying?
I am not putting down your personal experience. I am merely telling you to take it for what it is. You can’t go from a personal experience of God to the Bible it self. That is not reasonable.
But to go from Personal experience to curiosity → then discover the existence of Jesus through reason (History) → then turn to the Apostles (a rational choice) is REASONABLE.
If you were building a house, would you ask an Engineer (Apostles) who has been accredited by Engineers before him (Apostles before him) or just pick a random person, give him a book on building houses and expect him to do a good job?
Which is REASONABLE?
God Bless
… Jesus.
I am the truth.
… Jesus
The entire Christian Faith is based on personal experience.
500 witnesses … Pentecost … Paul on the Damascus road…
D
ddarko
Guest
But that it self is from the Bible. I am asking how you go from personal experience to the Bible in the first place.
It just does not logically follow my friend. Have you thought about the example I gave?
Actually false. Not the entire Christian faith.
Paul knew nothing about Christ other than what he learned from the Apostles preaching. He definitely didn’t get a personal experience telling him to READ the Bible either. His personal experience merely told him Christ was REAL. But he still had to KNOW what to BELIEVE.
Now you can argue that he was infused with knowledge at the moment of his personal experience but the same can’t be told of you or other followers of your view right?
Even then, all the 500 witnesses during Pentecost and other converts, STILL had to turn to the Apostles to decide on the matter of Circumcision. They just didn’t sit an pray to God to give them a personal experience as to WHICH is true.
Do you see what I am saying?
So again, this is very important that we nail this down. Your personal experience says NOTHING about what theology to believe. At best, it tells you that Christ and God are real. Anything else is just mere speculation on the person’s part.
Is this still not clear?
If it is clear, is it not reasonable that what you should be doing now is listening to the Apostles rather than a private interpretation?
God Bless
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1voice
Guest
Paul would never have obtained the understanding that led to his having written a large portion of the new testament… and given his life … if he had not first had a powerful experience … that he could not deny… He would have just continued killing and imprisoning Christians.
The foundation of his faith … was his personal encounter with Jesus. Paul was a scholar of the Old Testament … as his writings indicate…
He, in fact shows how the Old Testament pointed to Jesus … brilliantly. He would have never made the connection … or used his knowledge for more than being a good Pharisee … if he had not experienced Jesus personally.
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1voice
Guest
Name one person in the New Testament that didnt have a first hand supernatural experience before they became a disciple /follower of Jesus.
… Jesus’ desire and ability to manifest thousands of miracles … that made the ruling class look weak and ineffective … and that turned Israel upside down … was the main reason that the Sanhedrin wanted him dead.
It is clear that God wanted everyone to have a personal encounter with his glory and power… It was foundational. It established his authority and kindled unshakable faith.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
I don’t have to prove anything at all. Jesus did that for all of us.Sorry but I don’t know what I am to take out of this? Perhaps you can elaborate?
Are you trying to say that the above passage justifies FAITH in the Bible because it is Christ’s word? If so, you are just going circular. You have already assumed the authority of the BOOK you are about to PROVE as authoritative. So you haven’t proved anything.
Or did you mean to prove something else?
God Bless
The OP asked why does he needs to read the bible. I am simply answering. I know it’s hard to believe that someone is answering without trying to bash you and/or your faith, or without an agenda… oh well, it is time to believe!!!
[bibledrb]Hebrews 11:1[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Acts 8:26-40[/bibledrb]
More examples of how reading the bible helps with faith.
Don’t stop reading
D
ddarko
Guest
Well lets not attack a false position here.
My point is not that Paul’s personal experience is irrelevant. In fact, it is very relevant. It proved to him that Christ was REAL.
But he learned ABOUT Christ from the Apostles. He didn’t get an infusion of knowledge of Christ.
So you are really attacking a straw man here.
What are you talking about?
How does Paul know to make the connection if he didn’t KNOW anything about Jesus?
A personal experience only tells him that Jesus is real. HE KNOWS about Jesus from what the Apostles taught. Then he makes the connection to the Old Testament WITH the teaching authority given by the Apostles. Are you forgetting the part where he went to the Apostles after his personal experience?
Also, you dodged my reply to you in my last post. It is a fact that the early church turned to the Apostles to answer the question on the requirement of Circumcision AUTHORITATIVELY with FINALITY. They did not do their personal experience deal to come up with the truth.
So no, right now you are reading too much in to your personal experience. I am not sure why. Perhaps you have been given the impression by your leaders that other non-Christians don’t have personal experiences
What are you going to tell the Muslim who thinks his personal experience confirms Allah and Jesus as a mere prophet?
So no, you need to start thinking rationally. All a personal experience tells you is that there is a God or Christ that is willing to listen to your prayers. THAT IS IT!
Then you turn to the Apostles which in your case you aren’t doing. So please answer the question WHY.
Would you listen to your own interpretation over St. Paul’s who is an instituted Apostle by the ones before him? No, right? So why now?
God Bless
D
ddarko
Guest
You must be joking?I don’t have to prove anything at all. Jesus did that for all of us.
The OP asked why does he needs to read the bible. I am simply answering. I know it’s hard to believe that someone is answering without trying to bash you and/or your faith, or without an agenda… oh well, it is time to believe!!!
[bibledrb]Hebrews 11:1[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Acts 8:26-40[/bibledrb]
More examples of how reading the bible helps with faith.
Don’t stop reading
You can’t say that your belief that the Bible is the word of God is REASONABLE because the Bible says the above verses.
Is that not obvious to you?
If not, its called circular logic. You are assuming what you are about to prove. As far as Jesus goes, you only know that Jesus died and rose from the dead.
Unless you listen to the teachings of the Apostles, you don’t even know that the Bible is the word of God.
Yet here you are claiming the above verses. Just think about it for a bit. God gave you reason for that after all.
If I took every single verse you give me and included it in my OWN book that I write with some extra teaching, is it still God’s word? Absolutely NO, right?
So what that shows is that you can’t say you believe in the Bible because of Scripture verse X. The connection to the Bible has to be outside of Theology.
God Bless
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1voice
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
God said … I will write my laws on their hearts…
I believe that the Holy Spirit creates righteousness without requiring the constraint of any particular denomination
… "In the last days I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh.
'the kingdom of God is righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit… Against this … there is no law.
Your response is a typical way of rejecting that which does not fit your paradigm.
Conviction of sin and realization of salvation … in real time … IS the Christian message. Paul said … I did not come to you with strong arguments … but with the demonstration of God’s power.
I have personally witnessed the Holy Spirit … in action many, many times … confirming the truth spoken to people hungry for God’s reality … full of conviction …and powerfully persuaded and awakened to God’s presence touching their minds and hearts for the first time. The light comes on for the first time …and they know that they know that they know… The beginning of wisdom … Is fear of the Lord. It is a conscious reaction to a real experience. As real as Paul’s experience on the Damascus road.
I have witnessed deep repentance … with tears of sorrow… and then joy … It is an amazing blessing to see God at his best… saving a soul that was bound for an awful future. That does not occur in a vacuum. God does it… and it is incredible to witness.
Originally Posted by 1voice
God said … I will write my laws on their hearts…
I believe that the Holy Spirit creates righteousness without requiring the constraint of any particular denomination
… "In the last days I will pour out of my spirit on all flesh.
'the kingdom of God is righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit… Against this … there is no law.
If you believe that … there is no common ground to even have a conversation.
Your response is a typical way of rejecting that which does not fit your paradigm.
Conviction of sin and realization of salvation … in real time … IS the Christian message. Paul said … I did not come to you with strong arguments … but with the demonstration of God’s power.
I have personally witnessed the Holy Spirit … in action many, many times … confirming the truth spoken to people hungry for God’s reality … full of conviction …and powerfully persuaded and awakened to God’s presence touching their minds and hearts for the first time. The light comes on for the first time …and they know that they know that they know… The beginning of wisdom … Is fear of the Lord. It is a conscious reaction to a real experience. As real as Paul’s experience on the Damascus road.
I have witnessed deep repentance … with tears of sorrow… and then joy … It is an amazing blessing to see God at his best… saving a soul that was bound for an awful future. That does not occur in a vacuum. God does it… and it is incredible to witness.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
Dude, stop talking about circular logic… Last time I check Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc were apostles and disciples.You must be joking?
You can’t say that your belief that the Bible is the word of God is REASONABLE because the Bible says the above verses.
Is that not obvious to you?
If not, its called circular logic. You are assuming what you are about to prove. As far as Jesus goes, you only know that Jesus died and rose from the dead.
Unless you listen to the teachings of the Apostles, you don’t even know that the Bible is the word of God.
Yet here you are claiming the above verses. Just think about it for a bit. God gave you reason for that after all.
If I took every single verse you give me and included it in my OWN book that I write with some extra teaching, is it still God’s word? Absolutely NO, right?
So what that shows is that you can’t say you believe in the Bible because of Scripture verse X. The connection to the Bible has to be outside of Theology.
God Bless
You over complicate things.
We are saved by the Grace of our Lord.
We hear the word of God and Faith is born and starts to work on us.
We come in obedience to Baptism and wash away our sins and are reborn in Christ Jesus.
We renew our minds with the Word of our Lord.
Faith is a work in progress, it never ends.
Why do we come to Jesus?
He said it Himself, “No one can come to Me, unless he is drawn to me by the Father who sent me” (Recited from memory, feel free to correct)
By God’s Grace we come to Jesus.
You do understand that the entire Bible is about Jesus?
You seem to worry more about the legalities of religion and logic than the Word of God. That does not mean you are to be irresponsible or gullible. However, it is impossible for our human race to rationally explain the Holiness of our Lord.
Drop your salvation checklist and surrender yourself to your faith and let Jesus work in you. And this does not mean I support any other religious denomination, that I agree with what they practice, that this and that… Or you can just go ahead and burn people, that don’t agree with your beliefs, at the stake. Charge them with heresy or whatever… And that does not mean I agree with that either, in fact, I’ll probably try to protect them or you, if they want to burn you at the stake because of your religion beliefs. Unless it is about putting other lives in danger, etc… I think I’ve covered the major disclaimers…
I still think it’s pretty simple. Maybe God blessed me with lesser intelligence
- Status