If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[Supercatholic]

This thread has gone off track because of me. I apologize. Let’s get back to the topic, shall we. Jmartyr posed the question “If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?” And not one, not ONE person was able to give a logical answer. Oh I’ve seen some long run on answers, but nothing that truly supports a faith alone position without referring to the Bible to which that premise is not supported. And isn’t it interesting how door to door non-catholics feel the need to “save” us from our “non biblical, evil” Catholic church that has kept the “truth” from us, so long as we profess Jesus as our PERSONAL (that sounds so selfish to Catholic ears) Lord and Savior, join THEIR denomination, to which they would expect regular attendance and financial support AND read THEIR translation of the Bible. Yet somehow were saved by FAITH…ALONE…

 

[afiala2]

JMartyr73340,
This is a reply to your post, post #1 on this thread.
I agree that they seem to be contradictory. Also, neither sola scriptura nor sola fide appear to be biblical. Regarding sola scriptura, what they aren’t realizing is they are following a tradition of this teaching and are following the authority of the person/church that started it. So you need an authority other than the Bible to send or direct people to the Bible, which would always make the Bible a secondary authority; just saying something doesn’t make it so, they are always listening to some authority or following a tradition to arrive at this doctrine themselves. Sola scriptura also leads to the obvious conflict with interpretation when everyone places the Bible above any authority which leads to 38,000 denominations and counting. With sola scriptura, a person could argue their interpretation of Scripture is all you need to know is the Golden Rule and be nothing more than an ethical atheist in practice. Sola fide detaches actions whether good works or sins from the individual. But isn’t the need to read the Bible a work necessary as part of their faith? So you need the WORK of reading the Bible at a minimum for your faith to be valid, that doesn’t appear to be in agreement with sola fide. Faith and reason should never contradict. These two doctrines seem to contradict reason or don’t seem logical to me either. Could someone explain them so I can understand them? Or at least if the people who hold these beliefs could at least stop accusing Catholics of being non biblical and non Christian, Catholics are the only True Bible based Christian religion, do other religions practice Confession/Reconciliation or anointing of the sick? It is in the Bible, but those contradict sola fide. Where do sola scriptura believers think the Bible came from? I can assure you it didn’t fall out of the sky and hit Martin Luther in the head in the 1500s (pun intended with Newton and gravity). Sola scriptura implies universal literacy and availability of mass producing the Bible. We still don’t have universal literacy and as of now about 75% of Christian history was void of the printing press which was needed for mass producing the Bible. So how was/is sola scriptura a practical teaching for Christianity or any religion?
So where does the Bible say the Bible alone? That question itself should be enough to question the teaching of Sola Scriptura. If the Bible is the only authority shouldn’t it have to explicitly say as much? Faith alone, don’t need the Bible if Faith alone is enough. Since your personal actions/works are irrelevant towards salvation then whether a person chooses to read or not read the Bible wouldn’t matter with that teaching. Again, I don’t see the logic of the doctrine. Below are a few articles from CA.
Catholic Answers Articles
The Great Heresies
***Read intro, then skip to Protestantism.
catholic.com/library/Great_Heresies.asp
Justification Sola Fide
catholic.com/thisrock/2009/0909fea4.asp

A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea3.asp

“What’s Your Authority?”
catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp

Ten Thousand Chickens for One Thousand Bibles, Some Practical Problems of Sola Scriptura
***Especially note from this article that Sola Scriptura presupposes the printing press or it couldn’t have been a practical teaching until the Bible was available in mass quantity.
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9904fea4.asp

 

[Supercatholic]

This thread has gone off track because of me. I apologize. Let’s get back to the topic, shall we. Jmartyr posed the question “If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?” And not one, not ONE person was able to give a logical answer. Oh I’ve seen some long run on answers, but nothing that truly supports a faith alone position without referring to the Bible to which that premise is not supported. And isn’t it interesting how door to door non-catholics feel the need to “save” us from our “non biblical, evil” Catholic church that has kept the “truth” from us, so long as we profess Jesus as our PERSONAL (that sounds so selfish to Catholic ears) Lord and Savior, join THEIR denomination, to which they would expect regular attendance and financial support AND read THEIR translation of the Bible. Yet somehow we’re saved by FAITH…ALONE…

Oops! Forgot the apostrophe.

 

[PRmerger]

kyle, I have asked you now twice to provide an example of a church from the 5th century that was not “subject to the primacy of Rome.” Where was this church? Who were they “subject” to? (post #95 and post #99).

Could you please answer, to offer evidence of your statement here:

(And please provide reference(s) for your answer. Thanks.)

'kay. Then to whom were you referring when you used the word “they” in this post here:

Who were “they”? And where did they meet to worship? And who was their leader?

And please provide references. Thanks.

kyle, could you please respond to the above?

(I see that you last posted on this thread July 15, but made multiple postings on different threads on July 16; it would be good if you could address questions posted to you here before (or in addition to) leaving to join another conversation. Thanks.)

 

[PRmerger]

So, I guess my answer to why are there different beliefs has nothing to do with sola scriptura, as the history of different beliefs predates the Reformation. Human sin is the cause of these differences, of which we are all guilty.

Thanks for indulging me, my friend.

Jon

As with most Catholic answers, Jon, it is not either/or but both/and.

Human sin is the cause of all these differences.
Sola Scriptura is the cause of all these differences.

If SS were to work, then each and every person would read these words: * Baptism now saves you,* and know exactly what the Holy Spirit meant when inspiring the writer to pen this.

Instead we have chaos and confusion, wrought by the Reformation’s Sola Scriptura, fomented and gleefully animated by the evil one.

There are millions of Christians who can’t agree on those 4 theopneustos words.

Is baptism is an ordinance?
-no! baptism is just an outward sign
-no! baptism does nothing except get you wet
-no! baptism is a sacrament

-baptism must be done by immersion
-no! baptism must be done in a river
-no! baptism can be done by sprinkling

-baptism must be done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
-no! baptism must be done in Jesus name only

-baptism must be done at the age of consent
-no! baptism must be done as an adult
-no! baptism of infants is a must

Soooo sad that there is so much chaos and confusion.

From the Author of Chaos and Confusion who whispers: you can be your own authority on Scripture. You are your own pope. Read God’s Word and determine what it means yourself.

 

[JonNC]

=PRmerger;8130312]As with most Catholic answers, Jon, it is not either/or but both/and.

Human sin is the cause of all these differences.
Sola Scriptura is the cause of all these differences.

If SS were to work, then each and every person would read these words: * Baptism now saves you,* and know exactly what the Holy Spirit meant when inspiring the writer to pen this.

Instead we have chaos and confusion, wrought by the Reformation’s Sola Scriptura, fomented and gleefully animated by the evil one.

And this could also be said of other issues between east and west, PR. One can blame SS all they want, but the underlying issue is human sin.

There are millions of Christians who can’t agree on those 4 theopneustos words.

Is baptism is an ordinance?
-no! baptism is just an outward sign
-no! baptism does nothing except get you wet
-no! baptism is a sacrament

-baptism must be done by immersion
-no! baptism must be done in a river
-no! baptism can be done by sprinkling

-baptism must be done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
-no! baptism must be done in Jesus name only

-baptism must be done at the age of consent
-no! baptism must be done as an adult
-no! baptism of infants is a must

Soooo sad that there is so much chaos and confusion.

From the Author of Chaos and Confusion who whispers: you can be your own authority on Scripture. You are your own pope. Read God’s Word and determine what it means yourself.

And this is not sola scriptura.

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

And this could also be said of other issues between east and west, PR. One can blame SS all they want, but the underlying issue is human sin.

Please provide a teaching between east and west in which there is chaos and confusion, Jon.

 

[JonNC]

=Supercatholic;8128094]This thread has gone off track because of me. I apologize. Let’s get back to the topic, shall we. Jmartyr posed the question “If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?” And not one, not ONE person was able to give a logical answer.

and of course, it depends on the meaning of sola fide. If one defines sola fide in the way I often see it, a false caricature that portrays an intellectual assent, which allows the claimant to live anyway he wants, to ignore the commands of Christ to help our fellowman, to resist the means of grace in word and sacrament amnd therefore not grow in grace, then yes, jmartyr’s question cannot be answered.

But I contend the question itself implies a strawman argument, referring to the false caricature of sola fide, as outlined above.

Oh I’ve seen some long run on answers, but nothing that truly supports a faith alone position without referring to the Bible to which that premise is not supported.

If the faith in question is a saving faith, it is a biblical faith, one that works through love. A faith that does not work is a false faith, a dead faith, and not a saving faith. So, when a Lutheran speaks of being justified by grace alone through faith alone, it is known that sactification must be there. “There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.”
So, how can faith be real if there is no renewal of life, or new obedience? Have can it be a true faith if one does not do the good works which He has prepared for us to do? We know that faith comes from hearing. How then can faith be maintained if we do not participate in word and sacrament?

So, the answer to the OP is that faith alone includes these things, including participating in the word. Faith is supported and nurished by the Holy SPirit. How? By word and sacrament. The OP’s question presents a false choice, based on a wrong understanding of sola fide.

And isn’t it interesting how door to door non-catholics feel the need to “save” us from our “non biblical, evil” Catholic church that has kept the “truth” from us, so long as we profess Jesus as our PERSONAL (that sounds so selfish to Catholic ears) Lord and Savior, join THEIR denomination, to which they would expect regular attendance and financial support AND read THEIR translation of the Bible. Yet somehow were saved by FAITH…ALONE…

It sounds selfish to me, too. While He is my “personal” Savior, in that He died on the cross and rose again for me and all of mindkind, it is also true that, as a believer, I am part of the Communion of Saints, certainly not part of some isolated oone-on-one relationship. Supercatholic, I encourage you stay Catholic, because Christ saves His sheep in the Catholic Church, too. And btw, I really like the DRB.

Jon

 

[Rightlydivide]

This thread has gone off track because of me. I apologize. Let’s get back to the topic, shall we. Jmartyr posed the question “If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?” And not one, not ONE person was able to give a logical answer. Oh I’ve seen some long run on answers, but nothing that truly supports a faith alone position without referring to the Bible to which that premise is not supported. And isn’t it interesting how door to door non-catholics feel the need to “save” us from our “non biblical, evil” Catholic church that has kept the “truth” from us, so long as we profess Jesus as our PERSONAL (that sounds so selfish to Catholic ears) Lord and Savior, join THEIR denomination, to which they would expect regular attendance and financial support AND read THEIR translation of the Bible. Yet somehow were saved by FAITH…ALONE…

Of course I referred to the Bible. Why wouldn’t I? Scripture teaches us to study scripture. It is a logical answer.

 

[PRmerger]

Of course I referred to the Bible. Why wouldn’t I? Scripture teaches us to study scripture. It is a logical answer.

Do you think someone can be saved, by his faith, without ever wanting to open a bible, Rightly? He said the sinner’s prayer, came down for the altar call, asked Jesus to come into his heart, and says that Jesus is his savior.

But he then says, “I don’t have a bible. Don’t need one, don’t want one.”

Is he saved?

 

[Tony888]

Do you think someone can be saved, by his faith, without ever wanting to open a bible, Rightly? He said the sinner’s prayer, came down for the altar call, asked Jesus to come into his heart, and says that Jesus is his savior.

But he then says, “I don’t have a bible. Don’t need one, don’t want one.”

Is he saved?

That is a good example of why I can’t understand Calvinists. Your example ‘someone’ must nurture their spark of faith by reading the scritupres and following God’s commandments.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Do you think someone can be saved, by his faith, without ever wanting to open a bible, Rightly? He said the sinner’s prayer, came down for the altar call, asked Jesus to come into his heart, and says that Jesus is his savior.

But he then says, “I don’t have a bible. Don’t need one, don’t want one.”

Is he saved?

You might want to ask a Baptist. You just used two phrases or concepts not found in scripture. There is no such thing as an altar call or a sinner’s prayer in the Bible. The Bible never says anything about asking Jesus to come into your heart either of course. Anyone who asked Jesus into their heart just repeated meaningless non scriptural words and are no more saved than they were 5 minutes earlier.
That could be the problem with the person, not their view of the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

You might want to ask a Baptist. You just used two phrases or concepts not found in scripture. There is no such thing as an altar call or a sinner’s prayer in the Bible. The Bible never says anything about asking Jesus to come into your heart either of course. Anyone who asked Jesus into their heart just repeated meaningless non scriptural words and are no more saved than they were 5 minutes earlier.

Yes! You are one step closer to being a Catholic, Rightly!

Now, what is your belief about how you are saved? What verses in the Bible do you use to support this view?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Yes! You are one step closer to being a Catholic, Rightly!

Now, what is your belief about how you are saved? What verses in the Bible do you use to support this view?

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Luke 13:3, 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4] …I declare unto you the gospel…By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain…Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[JonNC]

Please provide a teaching between east and west in which there is chaos and confusion, Jon.

Hi PR,
Have you seen the recent back and forth on another current thread regarding the IC???

Jon

 

[PRmerger]

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Luke 13:3, 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4] …I declare unto you the gospel…By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain…Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

'kay. So if someone calls on the name of the Lord, “Jesus! You are my savior!” and repents of all of his past sins, keeps in memory those verses above…

But he then says, "I don’t have a bible. Don’t need one, don’t want one."

Is he saved?

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PR,
Have you seen the recent back and forth on another current thread regarding the IC???

Jon

No.

So, would you say, then, that there is “chaos and confusion” in the east and west about the IC?

As I have not seen the discussions I will defer to your opinion on this, Jon. If you can honestly say that both sides have promoted a culture of chaos and confusion in the Christian world, I will entertain that notion.

 

[JonNC]

No.

So, would you say, then, that there is “chaos and confusion” in the east and west about the IC?

As I have not seen the discussions I will defer to your opinion on this, Jon. If you can honestly say that both sides have promoted a culture of chaos and confusion in the Christian world, I will entertain that notion.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8131068#post8131068

Check the last 8 to 10 pages or so. Still, I’m not even sure its chaos and confusion, but a different view of the grace of the Blessed Virgin. And, as I said before, I’m not in chaos or confusion. The issues raised by a poster about confusion, I responded to, that is, the Lutheran confessions speak clearly to those issues. No confusion. That others believe differently is no different than Catholics and Orthodox believing differently on the doctine of the IC.
If one wants to equate differing doctrines as chaos and confusion for the universal Church, then ok, but it is not simply an issue for those distinct communions who are generally and broadly described as “protestant”. It is also true that not all of them employ sola scriptura as the practice used by their communion’s for hermeunetics.
Jon

 

[PRmerger]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8131068#post8131068

Check the last 8 to 10 pages or so. Still, I’m not even sure its chaos and confusion, but a different view of the grace of the Blessed Virgin.

Okay.

Then this issue of the IC between the east and west is* not *an example of the chaos and confusion wrought by Sola Scriptura.

And, as I said before, I’m not in chaos or confusion.

No, of course not.

But the Christian world that subscribes to SS is in the grips of this chaos and confusion, the fruit of what Luther wrought.

That others believe differently is no different than Catholics and Orthodox believing differently on the doctine of the IC.

Jon, if it were: the CC believes that the day of worship is Sunday, and all other Christians argued, “No! It is Saturday”, then you might compare it to the eastern/western disagreement on the IC.

But, the issue above is only one of a myriad of issues of great importance of which there is, indeed, chaos and confusion.

Now, thanks to SS

• We have millions of Christians who do not believe Baptism saves you.
• We have millions of Christians who do not avail themselves of the One Flesh Union with their Beloved.
• We have millions of Christians who do not believe that divorce and re-marriage is adultery.
• We have millions of Christians who believe that they can accept Jesus into their hearts and then they are guaranteed a spot in heaven.
• We have millions of Christians who profess that abortion is their right.
• We have millions of Christians who view marriage as anything that includes love and adults.

:bigyikes:

If this is not what makes the Author of Chaos and Confusion grin gleefully, then I don’t know what does.

 

[JonNC]

=PRmerger;8131711]Okay.

Then this issue of the IC between the east and west is* not *an example of the chaos and confusion wrought by Sola Scriptura.

Correct. It wrought, then, by Tradition and scripture?

But the Christian world that subscribes to SS is in the grips of this chaos and confusion, the fruit of what Luther wrought.

Listen to what some others say regarding how they practice SS, and it doesn’t too terribly much resemble what we Lutherans do. If they are in chaos, that is their choice and doing, but I would suspect that they would say that their communions are not in confusion either.

Jon, if it were: the CC believes that the day of worship is Sunday, and all other Christians argued, “No! It is Saturday”, then you might compare it to the eastern/western disagreement on the IC.

Not sure I understand.

Now, thanks to SS

• We have millions of Christians who do not believe Baptism saves you.
• We have millions of Christians who do not avail themselves of the One Flesh Union with their Beloved.
• We have millions of Christians who do not believe that divorce and re-marriage is adultery.
• We have millions of Christians who believe that they can accept Jesus into their hearts and then they are guaranteed a spot in heaven.
• We have millions of Christians who profess that abortion is their right.
• We have millions of Christians who view marriage as anything that includes love and adults.

:bigyikes:

PR, you speaking as if a method of hermeunetics has some will of its own. The fact is, regardless of SS or no SS, it is people, sinful humans, who have these varying beliefs.

If this is not what makes the Author of Chaos and Confusion grin gleefully, then I don’t know what does.

I would heartily agree, that the devil himself revels in our disunity. Pray for unity.

Jon