If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[rinnie]

Romans 10:14
But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?

Um l voice he said to Peter upon this Rock I will build my Church. The Church is a Visible place for all to see. Jesus started the Church and the Apostles were told to spread the GOOD news to one side of the world to another. Would you not agree that it is through the Apostles and their successors we were told the good news also?

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Unless a man is born of faith … he cant think with the right kind of logic. Man’s logic comes from a mind that is separated from truth and therefore by definition is fatally flawed.

This concept is incorrect because it is based upon the Calvanistic heresy of total depravity. On the contrary, our logic is designed by God to work in and through Him for His glory. Although our apprehension of the Truth is wounded by original sin, it is not so “fatally flawed” that it cannot comprehend God. This is made evident in the great discourse of Paul in Romans 2, where he shows that even Pagans, who have never heard of God, can live according to God’s design for them.

Rom 2:12-16
12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. **15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. **

What God desires of man is written into our very being, which is made in HIs image and likeness.

Saul the Pharisee (lawyer) was highly trained in logic … born and raised in the first one true religion instituted by God … his logic led him to completely agree with the stoning of Stephen.

 

[PRmerger]

Saul the Pharisee (lawyer) was highly trained in logic … born and raised in the first one true religion instituted by God … his logic led him to completely agree with the stoning of Stephen.

You must provide a verse that says it was St. Paul’s logic and not his tendency to sin that led him to “completely agree with the stoning of” St. Stephen.

 

[rinnie]

That is not what the verse communicates…

‘Faith IS the evidence of things unseen.’

St Stephen was ‘full of faith’ … He spoke in his own defense using the same book and drawing from the exact same history as the people that stoned him to death … with Saul/Paul … totally approving. Stephen’s reservoir of faith made him see the same facts … from God’s perspective. Saul found Stephens perspective intolerable… until he became Paul. … and he could not even begin to see God’s logical perspective of the Jewish faith and its relationship to Christianity until he was ‘born from above’. No logic in the universe was going to change Saul’s mind… he was the best of the best, logical Pharisee (lawyer) doing God’s work… period… end of statement.

Faith comes first … then the correct logic can follow. Not vice versa.

Faith is actually having the peaceful certainty of God. ‘By faith … the worlds were made’. Faith is knowing for sure. Faith has no question in it. Faith is absolutely certain.

Human logic cannot lead to faith. Faith operates according to God’s logic which is completely different from human logic as Saul/Paul and Stephen illustrate… God’s logic is above mans logic. …‘My ways are above your ways as the heavens are above the earth’.

Unless a man is born of faith … he cant think with the right kind of logic. Man’s logic comes from a mind that is separated from truth and therefore by definition is fatally flawed.

Wait a moment you said faith comes first. Well then did St Paul have faith in God when he was called Saul? Was he not a Jew who understood the Jewish law and faith and believe in The God of Abraham. If you agree how does you having faith, and knowing for sure make sense here. Did Saul not have faith and did he not think at the time he KNEW for sure, even though he was quite WRONG?

 

[1voice]

Quote rinnie:
And what about the scripture that states stay true to all that you have been taught by either by word or written. Where do you get the word? Which is what we call Sacred Tradition, because its not in the bible, its in the Church like the Bible tells you?​

Originally Posted by 1voice
Romans 10:14
But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?

Um l voice he said to Peter upon this Rock I will build my Church. The Church is a Visible place for all to see. Jesus started the Church and the Apostles were told to spread the GOOD news to one side of the world to another. Would you not agree that it is through the Apostles and their successors we were told the good news also?

I was referring to your statement that the word = tradition.

I am pointing to the fact that ‘word’ is defined by scripture as the word of God.

---

I do not in any way disagree with the fact that the Apostles and successors spread the good news.
I have come to the understanding that the fullness of Christ is available to Christians that practice their faith in various ’ traditions’ … not exclusively in the Catholic expression of Christianity …

 

[PRmerger]

I am pointing to the fact that ‘word’ is defined by scripture as the word of God.

Exactly. And the word of God is not constrained to Scripture. Catholics use the entirety of God’s Word: Scripture and Tradition.

 

[CopticChristian]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Unless a man is born of faith … he cant think with the right kind of logic. Man’s logic comes from a mind that is separated from truth and therefore by definition is fatally flawed.

Saul the Pharisee (lawyer) was highly trained in logic … born and raised in the first one true religion instituted by God … his logic led him to completely agree with the stoning of Stephen.

Unless a man is born of faith

To be born of Faith ask and respond where this Faith comes from and how you get it and what you tell others as to how you get it.

 

[rinnie]

Quote rinnie:
And what about the scripture that states stay true to all that you have been taught by either by word or written. Where do you get the word? Which is what we call Sacred Tradition, because its not in the bible, its in the Church like the Bible tells you?​

Originally Posted by 1voice
Romans 10:14
But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?

I was referring to your statement that the word = tradition.

I am pointing to the fact that ‘word’ is defined by scripture as the word of God.

---

I do not in any way disagree with the fact that the Apostles and successors spread the good news.
I have come to the understanding that the fullness of Christ is available to Christians that practice their faith in various ’ traditions’ … not exclusively in the Catholic expression of Christianity …

Well see now we have a problem are you going to stick to the Teachings of the Early Fathers of the Church which is passed on and called Sacred Tradition. OR do as you claim and stick to the traditon of man. That is what you are doing when you feel you have the power of the Holy Spirit to teach in the name of Christ without the Laying of the Hands.

According to your words I would assume you feel you will stick to your own teaching and interpretation am I correct? Which is exactly what the bible forbids one to do.

 

[1voice]

Wait a moment you said faith comes first. Well then did St Paul have faith in God when he was called Saul? Was he not a Jew who understood the Jewish law and faith and believe in The God of Abraham. If you agree how does you having faith, and knowing for sure make sense here. Did Saul not have faith and did he not think at the time he KNEW for sure, even though he was quite WRONG?

The word ‘faith’ (as used in the word of God) is not a synonym for the word ‘belief’.

A person can believe in anything… A person can be misled into the ‘belief’ of something that is completely false.

Saul/ Paul was misled by believing a lie. After he met Jesus he realized that human error can form the counterfeit of God’s truth. … Causing a person to have counterfeit faith.

Faith, as used in the Bible, contains the concept of God’s reality / God’s perspective.

Faith IS the substance of things unseen. using faith … God made the universe.

… I did not say (on my own) that faith comes first. I am repeating what the Bible states.

Romans 16
16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile. 17 This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life."

Acts 14:27
Upon arriving in Antioch, they called the church together and reported everything God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles, too.

In each of the following examples … faith was required in order to produce the desired result…

Luke 8:50
But when Jesus heard what had happened, he said to Jairus, “Don’t be afraid. Just have faith, and she will be healed.”

Luke 7:50
And Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Mark 5:34
And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace. Your suffering is over.”

Mark 10:52
And Jesus said to him, “Go, for your faith has healed you.” Instantly the man could see, and he followed Jesus down the road.
Mark 10:51-52

 

[rinnie]

Quote rinnie:
And what about the scripture that states stay true to all that you have been taught by either by word or written. Where do you get the word? Which is what we call Sacred Tradition, because its not in the bible, its in the Church like the Bible tells you?​

Originally Posted by 1voice
Romans 10:14
But how can they call on him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?

I was referring to your statement that the word = tradition.

I am pointing to the fact that ‘word’ is defined by scripture as the word of God.

---

I do not in any way disagree with the fact that the Apostles and successors spread the good news.
I have come to the understanding that the fullness of Christ is available to Christians that practice their faith in various ’ traditions’ … not exclusively in the Catholic expression of Christianity …

And also lvoice I was taught that the Word is CHRIST MADE FLESH. Christ was who we are told to follow not the word

If the bible was such a big deal how did we get along without it all of those years. And if the bible is so important why do we need a Church? And if the bible is so important why can’t it Baptise me, why can’t it give me absolution for my sins, why cant it interperet itself, why can’t it give me the anointing of the sick, marry me in the eyes of God, And MOST important why can’t it turn regular bread and wine into the Actual body and blood of my dear Jesus? Why can’t I be saved by just reading the word of God.

DO not get me wrong and think that I do not READ the word daily, pray on it, and make it my one on one time with God, but I know it is not enough. I LOVE to learn and read about Jesus, but I am smart enough also to know that I do not have the mind of Christ, the only People who can speak in his name are the leaders in the Church. God make it that way, not us.

THe bible is the TRUE word of GOD, my point is we need the CHURCH to relay to us the MIND of GOd and the true meaning of his word.

 

[rinnie]

The word ‘faith’ (as used in the word of God) is not a synonym for the word ‘belief’.

A person can believe in anything… A person can be misled into the ‘belief’ of something that is completely false.

Saul/ Paul was misled by believing a lie. After he met Jesus he realized that human error can form the counterfeit of God’s truth. … Causing a person to have counterfeit faith.

Faith, as used in the Bible, contains the concept of God’s reality / God’s perspective.

Faith IS the substance of things unseen. using faith … God made the universe.

… I did not say (on my own) that faith comes first. I am repeating what the Bible states.

Romans 16
16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile. 17 This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life."

Acts 14:27
Upon arriving in Antioch, they called the church together and reported everything God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles, too.

In each of the following examples … faith was required in order to produce the desired result…

Luke 8:50
But when Jesus heard what had happened, he said to Jairus, “Don’t be afraid. Just have faith, and she will be healed.”

Luke 7:50
And Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Mark 5:34
And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace. Your suffering is over.”

Mark 10:52
And Jesus said to him, “Go, for your faith has healed you.” Instantly the man could see, and he followed Jesus down the road.
Mark 10:51-52

I am glad you are not saying that faith comes first, now I have to get you to agree that the bible doesn’t state that either

 

[1voice]

I am glad you are not saying that faith comes first, now I have to get you to agree that the bible doesn’t state that either

You misread what I said…

quote 1v:
“… I did not say (on my own) that faith comes first. I am repeating what the Bible states.”

Romans 16
16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile. 17 This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life."

 

[CopticChristian]

You misread what I said…

quote 1v:
“… I did not say (on my own) that faith comes first. I am repeating what the Bible states.”

Romans 16
16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile. 17 This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life."

The word ‘faith’ (as used in the word of God) is not a synonym for the word ‘belief’.

You previously stated this. So how is anyone to understand what you mean Faith to be? It is not a synonym. Ok. Then what is it in your own words. No bible verses will suffice.

 

[rinnie]

You misread what I said…

quote 1v:
“… I did not say (on my own) that faith comes first. I am repeating what the Bible states.”

Romans 16
16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile. 17 This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life."

Yes lvoice and what is the Power of God at work? Is it the Grace that is given to us so that we can even begin to have faith. I would think so.

But back to the point where in this scripture do you feel that faith comes first. And why quote this scripture that states it is by the Grace of GOd that one has faith, and by that Grace that we are given we live our faith.

If I say to you it is MY faith that saved me, then I am saying I did this on my own. After all it is MY faith that SAVED ME.

But when I praise GOd for giving me HIS grace to even know what faith is, and by giving me that Grace to live out the faith then I accepted that Grace that was freely given and used it to do Gods work.

 

[guanophore]

I am pointing to the fact that ‘word’ is defined by scripture as the word of God.

That is a little vague, isn’t it? The Word is Christ. The Word is also described in both written and oral forms. The Apostle commands us to keep both of them. How do you keep the part that is “word of mouth”?

I have come to the understanding that the fullness of Christ is available to Christians that practice their faith in various ’ traditions’ … not exclusively in the Catholic expression of Christianity …

This is a way of rejecting the Catholic Church. When you assert that those who have rejected parts of the Apostolic faith still have “the fullness” it is because you are agreeing with the parts that were thrown out by your spiritual predecessors.

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
You misread what I said…

quote 1v:
“… I did not say (on my own) that faith comes first. I am repeating what the Bible states.”

Romans 16
16 For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile. 17 This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life."
Quote:
The word ‘faith’ (as used in the word of God) is not a synonym for the word ‘belief’.

You previously stated this. So how is anyone to understand what you mean Faith to be? It is not a synonym. Ok. Then what is it in your own words. No bible verses will suffice.

Belief can be founded in the faith that comes from God … or it can be founded in something else.
Jesus said:
Luke 8:50
But when Jesus heard what had happened, he said to Jairus, “Don’t be afraid. Just have faith, and she will be healed.”

God’s faith was available to heal the the man’s daughter … he had the choice to believe the truth or not… The same applies in Romans 16 … there is faith available for salvation … people have a choice to believe it or not … When they accept salvation they accept and begin to exercise the gift of faith.

“Faith comes by hearing” … Jesus said … If anyone has ears to hear … let him hear… and receive the faith … that opens the heart to the belief/ understanding that repentance is necessary … and possible. … or healing is possible … or any number of promises that are described in God’s word.

 

[guanophore]

A person can believe in anything… A person can be misled into the ‘belief’ of something that is completely false.

I am glad you realize this. What standard do you have, outside yourself, that you have not embraced falsehoods?

Saul/ Paul was misled by believing a lie. After he met Jesus he realized that human error can form the counterfeit of God’s truth. … Causing a person to have counterfeit faith.

So, all of Saul’s faith, prior to meeting Jesus, was counterfeit?

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Saul/ Paul was misled by believing a lie. After he met Jesus he realized that human error can form the counterfeit of God’s truth. … Causing a person to have counterfeit faith.

So, all of Saul’s faith, prior to meeting Jesus, was counterfeit?

I was referring to Saul’s ‘logical’ conclusion concerning Christs followers.

 

[rinnie]

That is a little vague, isn’t it? The Word is Christ. The Word is also described in both written and oral forms. The Apostle commands us to keep both of them. How do you keep the part that is “word of mouth”?

This is a way of rejecting the Catholic Church. When you assert that those who have rejected parts of the Apostolic faith still have “the fullness” it is because you are agreeing with the parts that were thrown out by your spiritual predecessors.

My question is how does she even HEAR it alone keep it?

 

[rinnie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Saul/ Paul was misled by believing a lie. After he met Jesus he realized that human error can form the counterfeit of God’s truth. … Causing a person to have counterfeit faith.

I was referring to Saul’s ‘logical’ conclusion concerning Christs followers.

Logical to whom? Christians? Do you think St Peter found it logical?