If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[guanophore]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Saul/ Paul was misled by believing a lie. After he met Jesus he realized that human error can form the counterfeit of God’s truth. … Causing a person to have counterfeit faith.

I was referring to Saul’s ‘logical’ conclusion concerning Christs followers.

Ok, but you also said he was misled by believing a lie. So, was his Jewish faith a lie? A counterfeit?

 

[PRmerger]

I was referring to Saul’s ‘logical’ conclusion concerning Christs followers.

Chapter and verse, please, that states it was Saul’s “logic” that served as the impetus for his Christian persecution.

 

[1voice]

Ok, but you also said he was misled by believing a lie. So, was his Jewish faith a lie? A counterfeit?

The Jewish faith was the real deal … as Philip explained to the Ethiopian … the Old Testament scriptures pointed toward the Messiah… and he got it.

Obviously the Sanhedrin and many of the Pharisees (of which Saul/ Paul was one) didnt get it … and refused to believe “the way the truth and the life” … Jesus called them whitewashed tombs.

Jesus specifically said that it was their worthless traditions that voided the power of God.

 

[guanophore]

The Jewish faith was the real deal … as Philip explained to the Ethiopian … the Old Testament scriptures pointed toward the Messiah.

Obviously the Sanhedrin and many of the Pharisees (of which Saul/ Paul was one) didnt believe “the way the truth and the life” … Jesus called them whitewashed tombs.

Jesus said that their traditions voided the power of God.

He did, but the subject here is not man made traditions that void the Word of God. We are asking you to back up the assertions you have made. You claimed that it was Paul’s false logic that led him to persecute the Church.

Paul testifies that it was zeal that drove him:

Acts 22:3-5

3 "I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cili’cia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gama’li-el, educated according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers,** being zealous for God as you all are this day.** 4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, 5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brethren, and I journeyed to Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.

One can be full of faith, and very zealous, and still be misled. You are claiming that all one needs is faith. To support yourself, you are claiming that Paul did not act in good faith.

 

[guanophore]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1voice
Saul/ Paul was misled by believing a lie.

What lie was that?

After he met Jesus he realized that human error can form the counterfeit of God’s truth. … Causing a person to have counterfeit faith.

What was the “human error”?

How do you determine that Saul had “counterfeit faith”?

Gal 1:13-15
13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it; 14 and I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.

Are you saying that his advancement in Judaism was “counterfeit”?

Were all these things:

Rom 9:4-5
4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.

For which Saul was very zealous, “counterfeit”?

I was referring to Saul’s ‘logical’ conclusion concerning Christs followers.

Please show us where his decision came from logic, instead of misplaced zeal, as he testifies of himself.

 

[1voice]

He did, but the subject here is not man made traditions that void the Word of God. We are asking you to back up the assertions you have made. You claimed that it was Paul’s false logic that led him to persecute the Church.

Paul testifies that it was zeal that drove him:

Acts 22:3-5

3 "I am a Jew, born at Tarsus in Cili’cia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gama’li-el, educated according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers,** being zealous for God as you all are this day.** 4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, 5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brethren, and I journeyed to Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.

One can be full of faith, and very zealous, and still be misled. You are claiming that all one needs is faith. To support yourself, you are claiming that Paul did not act in good faith.

… and he is explaining that his zeal was as misdirected as that of the crowd he is trying to persuade. Human faith brings death. God’s faith brings life.​

Jesus said that the Sanhedrin did not act in good faith. Everyone at that time in and around Jerusalem knew of Jesus … Some responded positively … some negatively … Jesus attributed it to faith … the scripture records that he could do very little in his home town and it specifically attributes it to their lack of faith.

 

[guanophore]

… and he is explaining that his zeal was as misdirected as that of the crowd he is trying to persuade. Human faith brings death. God’s faith brings life.

Ok. So we are in agreement that it was Saul’s misdirected zeal, and not “logic” that led him astray?

Jesus said that the Sanhedrin did not act in good faith.

Really? when did He say that?

Everyone at that time in and around Jerusalem knew of Jesus … Some responded positively … some negatively … Jesus attributed it to faith … the scripture records that he could do very little in his home town and it specifically attributes it to their lack of faith.

Indeed. But I think it is clear that Saul was quite zealous about his faith.

 

[1voice]

Ok. So we are in agreement that it was Saul’s misdirected zeal, and not “logic” that led him astray?

Zeal is based a value system … I doesnt function in a vacuum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Jesus said that the Sanhedrin did not act in good faith.

Really? when did He say that?

Matthew 23:13
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees ] “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

 

[guanophore]

Zeal is based a value system … I doesnt function in a vacuum.

Absolutely. So, you are asserting that there was a flaw in the value system of Saul of Tarsus?

Do you think Saul of Tarsus’ value system based was based on “logic”?

Is yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Jesus said that the Sanhedrin did not act in good faith.

Matthew 23:13
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees ] “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

So acting hypocritically is acting in “bad faith”?

Did Peter act in “bad faith” when he withdrew from the Gentiles?

Were the Sanhedrin and Peter “illogical”?

 

[1voice]

Matthew 23:13
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees ] “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

So acting hypocritically is acting in “bad faith”?

hypocrisy thesaurus
n.
quackery, casuistry, pharisaism, sanctimoniousness, affectation, pietism, false guise, bad faith, hollowness, display, charlatanry, lip service, bigotry, dissimulation, sham, fraud, pretense of virtue, false goodness, lip homage, formalism, false piety, assumed piety, empty ceremony, tartuffism, solemn mockery, tartuffery, lip reverence, sanctimony, false profession, cant, bunkum*, bunk*; see also deception 1, dishonesty, lie 1, pretense 1.

 

[guanophore]

Matthew 23:13
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees ] “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

So you make no distinction between this group of people, and the Sanhedrin?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Saul the Pharisee trained at the feet of Gamaliel, one of the writers of the Jewish Talmud.

Gamaliel is mentioned in the book of Acts as having saved the lives of Peter, James, and John from the angry Sanhedrin.

The high priest questioned them, saying, “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. “And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Gamaliel’s Counsel

  But when they heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. “For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. “After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. “So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”

If this tolerant and lifesaving was Saul’s rabbi and mentor, then it seems that when persecuting Christians, and assisting in the murder of St. Stephen, that Saul really went off the Reservation.

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Matthew 23:13
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees ] “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

So you make no distinction between this group of people, and the Sanhedrin?

The Sanhedrin was made up of the chief priest, a vice chief justice, and 69 general members. It was made up of Pharisees and Sadducees.

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
Matthew 23:13
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees ] “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

The Sanhedrin was made up of the chief priest, a vice chief justice, and 69 general members. It was made up of Pharisees and Sadducees.