If I convert to orthodoxy will I go to hell?

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AlNg said:
I read that there is another side to this story. The Ukrainian Khruschev illegally transferred Ukraine from Russia to Ukraine in 1954. In 2014,
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:roll_eyes:
AlNg said:
Crimea overwhelmingly voted to return to Motherland Russia.
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:roll_eyes: :roll_eyes:

Kind of like the “overwhelming” Austrian vote for Anschluss?
AlNg said:
I am interested to know where Putin said he supported the execution of Ukrainian clergy.
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If you got that from what I said, there is no point from going further.
AlNg said:
Further it appears that you are forgetting that under communism, Russian Orthodox clergy were also suppressed.
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Aside from the fact that I explicitly acknowledged that . . . :roll_eyes: . . . you haven’t explained how that excuses Russian clergy from assisting in the executing and imprisoning of Ukrainian clergy, or taking over the Ukrainian church and its assets.

As I said, this is distracting the thread. Start a new one. This is so far off topic at this point to be comical, and I will not respond further.
 
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AlNg said:
Do you say that the Vatican has failed in its mission?
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They can answer that question for themself by their actions. Without naming anybody, lots of people in the highest parts of the church have failed in their mission undoubtedly. In the last few years, it is now finally becoming evident to many what this direction is leading to
 
dochawk said:
Again, hardly surprising
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I was very surprised to hear the head of the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine say that they were betrayed by the Vatican after Pope Francis met with the Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill. My personal opinion is that Pope Francis is working for peace and reconciliation and i don’t see him trying to betray any Catholic.
 
Paul_Edwards said:
In the last few years, it is now finally becoming evident to many what this direction is leading to
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It is? Can you enlighten us a bit and let us know where this direction is leading to? AFAIK, Pope Francis is doing his best to promote peace and understanding between Catholic and Orthodox, and between Catholics and non-Catholics in general. Many Catholics warmly endorse his efforts and are surprised when we hear comments about this or that being a betrayal of some sort?
 
AlNg said:
And you have not explained how that excuses
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He explained that he is not going to explain here. He told you to start a new thread because this is not the topic of this one. I don’t see how this is related to anything in this thread, and perhaps I am wrong but dochawk sees it same way.

But if you are interested in discussion about Ukraine and Russia, start thread and I am sure people will converse with you.
 
AlNg said:
OK. But who brought this thread off topic?
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B…but mom! He did it first!

In all seriousness, he mentioned something to make a point about Zoghby’s initiative, which is actually related to thread’s topic. Discussion about Ukraine and Russia is not really the point of that though.
 
If you are aware of their heresies and still want to become anyway, then, yes, you most probably will…
 
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AlNg said:
i don’t see him trying to betray any Catholic.
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I think Cardinal Zen would disagree, and the Society of Apostolic Life [Familia Christi], and the Franciscan’s of the Immaculate and their founder Father Manelli, and last but not least, the Opus Dei Bishop Rogelio Ricardo Livieres Plano among many others
 
I think he means why would the Holy Spirit just now reveal this stuff. Why didn’t Jesus teach it or why didn’t the Holy Spirit inspire it earlier.
 
I think the question in this post, as far as the writer of the post is concerned, is answered by the Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14:

“They could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.”

I quote this partly for the sake of those who refuse to believe anything unless it has been repeated by this council, otherwise I would quote the Council of Florence also in relation to schism etc.
 
AlNg said:
No. the topic is if i convert to Orthodoxy will i go to hell, not
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And dochawk was making a point about Zoghby’s initiative which incidentally is related to the topic.
 
Paul_Edwards said:
I think the question in this post, as far as the writer of the post is concerned, is answered by the Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 14:
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But according to Unitatis Redintegratio there is a special exception for the Churches of the East which are not in communion with Rome.

ZP
 
ziapueblo said:
But according to Unitatis Redintegratio there is a special exception for the Churches of the East which are not in communion with Rome.
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Could you perhaps quote that or say where it is? I just went through the part about Eastern Churches in Unitatis Redintegratio and couldn’t find anything like that… but then again I am pretty bad at searching.
 
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There’s no specific quote. I’m just saying, collectively, Unitatis Redintegratio and Ut Unum Sint, in my understanding of it, say that the Orthodox Church, from the Catholic point of view, is part of “the Church.” In communion with one another, no, but the Church none the less.

Again, this is my understanding, along with Byzantine Catholic friends of mine (of course they are Melkites and tend to be very Orthodox friendly) as well as some Byzantine Catholics on this forum.

ZP
 
ziapueblo said:
There’s no specific quote. I’m just saying, collectively, Unitatis Redintegratio and Ut Unum Sint , in my understanding of it, say that the Orthodox Church, from the Catholic point of view, is part of “the Church.” In communion with one another, no, but the Church none the less.
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Well, there is a quote which was posted above about schisming from Catholic Church and there is no clear exception made by Church either way. I am not damning everyone who converts to Hell, but it nevertheless is objectively grave matter. In other words, with some other conditions can result into mortal sin. Again, I am speaking objectively and leave judgment of each case to God alone. But there is reason Church warns us…
 
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catholic03 said:
If EP stands for Ecumenical Patriarchate, then I would say that Bartholomew I is quite open - he apparently said reunification with Rome is inevitable,
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I guess the “he apparently said” frees you from providing a citation. 🙂
 
ziapueblo said:
There’s no specific quote.
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So maybe the council doesn’t contradict itself after all. Perhaps the left in the church have read to much into the council to make it appear as if it contradicted 19 centuries of teaching, whereas perhaps it does not nevertheless.

We must accept the first 20 ecumenical councils De Facto in every sense. The 21st council ought to be accepted also, but however it must be read with a filter and understood “in the light of tradition” as the FSSP would understand it. As a reminder the FSSP was set up by 12 priests of Archbishop Lefebvre, who whilst alongside the archbishop they accept the constant teaching of the church, these 12 priests accepted the council in principle but understand it in a way which does not contradict the teaching of the past. Part of that understanding means that the Eastern Orthodox clergy (as well as everyone else) have a divine obligation from God to submit to the Bishop of Rome, not based upon whether or not this or that individual Bishop of Rome accept this fact, but rather based directly upon the Office which was Divinely instituted by Christ. This obligation flows directly from the office because that it’s the chair of peter and from Peter therefore, rather than directly from the individual on the throne at this moment, who cannot change the nature of the papacy, nor the fact that submission to it and profession of its divine origin is necessary
ziapueblo said:
in my understanding of it
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That’s exactly the point. This council is so easily misunderstood, this is why there has been so many problems for the last 50 years, because it’s documents are ambiguous and can be understood in a way that promotes things which are not correct. This is why we have to have to have an understanding of Archbishop Lefebvre whether or not he was correct, because even if the council has no error it is surely worded in a way that it can be understood as backing up errors. This is why the FSSP was formed.

If you want to suggest anything about the Eastern Orthodox Church, I would recommend also quoting from the other ecumenical councils (of which there is another 20) and not just from one. After all this schism happened centuries ago and not 50 years ago and the truth is eternal and does not change.

PE
 
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Paul_Edwards said:
I quote this partly for the sake of those who refuse to believe anything unless it has been repeated by this council, otherwise I would quote the Council of Florence also in relation to schism etc.
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And the problem with the Council of Florence is that it was repudiated by its Orthodox contingent once they came out from under Vatican “hospitality” and were returned to Constantinople…

Well, the good news is that we were all warned:

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the Woman which brought forth the man-child.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the Woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Upon this earth there is Good and evil…

They are at war, One with the other…

May we, in Her, be at Peace…

geo
 
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