If I convert to orthodoxy will I go to hell?

[AlNg]

Do you know which Orthodox Church?

I think it was the Macedonian Orthodox Church. The problem was that Macedonia claims independence but this is disputed by Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia.

 

[AlNg]

Same way, Catholics should not act like … they are actually wrong- if they truly believe so, they should not be Catholic

AFAIK, SSPX and many Catholics believe that that Church is wrong on granting so many marriage annulments. And to say that someone was not married, when they actually were. And to require that a couple obtain a divorce before presenting their case to the marriage tribunal. Jesus said: “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.” Mark 10: 11. Even Cardinal Kasper said that this process in some cases can be a divorce in a dishonest way. Are you saying that Cardinal Kasper should not be Catholic ? During his interview in America magazine Cardinal Kasper said: “This marriage was a reality, and to say it was canonically null and void does not make sense to me. This is an abstract canonical construction. It’s divorce in a Catholic way, in a dishonest way.”
Capital punishment is another area of disagreement.
Artificial birth control for married couples with more than 4 children.
Dropping the atomic bomb on japan. BTW, I agree with the teaching that this was wrong, but there are Catholics who say it was justified because it saved lives.
There are many areas where Catholics disagree with the Church and still remain Catholics. AFAIK, Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi have not been excommunicated.

Yup. Exactly.

I disagree. Although the main issue is supreme and immediate jurisdiction over the whole Church by the Bishop of Rome, I think that there are other issues involved.

 

[dochawk]

I’m the most recent conversation I had with this person, they insisted that while proselytizing Orthodox was wrong, evangelizing them should indeed be carried out.

Uhm, sure. And peace is war, and . . .

Do you know which Orthodox Church? Was it the Georgian Patriarchate?

I think it was that one, but my memory is to fuzzy to commit. But it might have been Macedonian, as suggested as @AlNg. (heck, maybe it was both . . . there have been a few of these over the centuries . . .)

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

I think it was the Macedonian Orthodox Church. The problem was that Macedonia claims independence but this is disputed by Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia.

Yes. That makes sense. The Macedonian Orthodox Church is schismatic and uncanonical and not recognized by any of the Autocephalous Orthodox Patriarchates. Constantinople was threatening a few months ago to recognize them (as a way to consolidate power) and grant them autocephaly much to the distress of the Serbian and Greek Orthodox Churches.

 

[PilgrimMichelangelo]

I think it was that one, but my memory is to fuzzy to commit. But it might have been Macedonian, as suggested as @AlNg. (heck, maybe it was both . . . there have been a few of these over the centuries . . .)

If it was the Georgian Patriarchate and they were to enter into communion with Rome that would be a staggering defeat for the Orthodox side of the Schism. Georgia is currently considered one of the holiest and most venerable of the Orthodox Churches in our communion and is known for its faithfulness to Holy Tradition.

 

[dochawk]

The Macedonian Orthodox Church is schismatic and uncanonical

Keep in mind, though, that the bulk of the “newer” Orthodox churches started the same way. After a few decades, they tend to get recognized, and eventually kind of get a retroactive canonicity.

What seems to be the most common Orthodox view says that the same would happen if Rome “returned” to Orthodoxy.

 

[Isaac14]

He should. Does he? Up to debate (not saying either is true, as per usual). IOW Catholics can consider Pope’s example bad and still be good Catholics.

Is the Pope setting a bad example in stating Catholics should not convert the Orthodox?

Look, if the goal of the dialogue between the Catholics and Orthodox is ordered to achieve restoration of communion, how is that supposed to happen if each church holds the only valid mindset is “I’m right and you’re wrong?” Dialogue would be impossible and get nowhere. Yet we see the fruit of that effort in a number of agreed statements as those involved slowly and carefully work through issues precisely because the participants from both side aren’t taking that mindset. Further, no one in these dialogues is insisting the other side has to give up their beliefs.

I hope I’m misunderstanding you, but your mindset seems to be that you’re open to dialogue as long as the Orthodox agree, ultimately, to submit to the Pope.

 

[CathBoy1]

AlNg:

St. Gregory Palamas is recognized as a saint

I have found out more information about Gregory Palamas. He is certainly not a saint and not only because he is orthodox but for other reasons also, namely for teaching a heresy which is now known by the name of Palamism. The Catholic encyclopedia in fact has a lot to say about this

Actually the Melkite Catholic and Ukrainian Catholic Churches (which are in full communion with Rome) venerate St Gregory Palamas, so if eastern Catholics are free to venerate him as a Saint I see absolutely no reason why western Catholics can’t, also Saint Pope JPII had nothing but good things to say about St Gregory Palamas.
Here is a (very good) Wikipedia article:

Gregory Palamas - Wikipedia

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

AFAIK, SSPX and many Catholics believe that that Church is wrong on granting so many marriage annulments.

I am one of them. I do not judge individual cases but objectively some things feel like divorce in disguise.

Are you saying that Cardinal Kasper should not be Catholic ?

On the contrary. Catholic Church teaches what is and is not valid matter for annulment. Those who dissent and abuse it stand against the Church.

Capital punishment is another area of disagreement.
Artificial birth control for married couples with more than 4 children.

Again, Catholic Church is teaching something. People can dissent Church stays the same.

Dropping the atomic bomb on japan. BTW, I agree with the teaching that this was wrong, but there are Catholics who say it was justified because it saved lives.

That comes down to personal opinion

There are many areas where Catholics disagree with the Church and still remain Catholics. AFAIK, Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi have not been excommunicated.

First, Catholic should believe Catholic Church is Church of Christ built upon Peter. They should obey infallible and binding things… others are up to their opinion. Second, I believe those who do not do so should not pretend to be Catholics. That is all.

I think that there are other issues involved.

Such as?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

if the goal of the dialogue between the Catholics and Orthodox is ordered to achieve restoration of communion

Yes, but dialogue nor unity with Orthodox Church are not prime goal of Catholic Church. Church guards truth in our eyes and Church is built to spread the True Gospel. As long as that is not compromised other goals come in- such as unity with Orthodox Church. If prime goal is unity with Orthodoxy, Catholics could just en masse convert to it.

 

[Isaac14]

Yes, but dialogue nor unity with Orthodox Church are not prime goal of Catholic Church.

That’s all well and good, but I’m asking the question precisely in the context of that dialogue.

Church guards truth in our eyes and Church is built to spread the True Gospel.

If this is case, then shouldn’t the Catholic Church just make the ultimatum to the Orthodox that the only way is to achieve restoration of communion is for the Orthodox to accept the “True Gospel” by submitting to the Pope and stop wasting time in dialogue?

If prime goal is unity with Orthodoxy, Catholics could just en masse convert to it.

You know that is entirely antithetical to the purpose of the dialogue between our churches. Mass conversion in either direction is not a restoration of communion or healing of past wrongs.

 

[ziapueblo]

First, Catholic should believe Catholic Church is Church of Christ built upon Peter.

Maybe you could explain this for me. It seems what you are saying is that St Peter and his successors in Rome take precedents over the Creed, the Councils, the Sacraments, the Gospel itself?

I’m not sure if you know who Dr. James White is? He runs a ministry called Alpha and Omega, or something to that effect. I would say that Dr. James White is one of the more prominent voices of American evangelical Christianity. When it comes to things Catholic and Orthodox he is very misinformed (I regularly watch his YouTube channel because I believe it is important to know what the evangelical Christian mindset is). Anyway, when speaking about Roman Catholics he often used the phrase “St Peter complex.” I believe your statement is why he throws that phrase around all the time.

ZP

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Is the Pope setting a bad example in stating Catholics should not convert the Orthodox?

I don’t know which Pope said that, but if anyone says that they they are wrong regardless of who they are or what position they are in. Truth is objective.

Catholics can consider Pope’s example bad and still be good Catholics.

If for the same of argument a Pope was to set a different example to that of all of his predecessors, then yes

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Actually the Melkite Catholic and Ukrainian Catholic Churches (which are in full communion with Rome) venerate St Gregory Palamas, so if eastern Catholics are free to venerate him as a Saint I see absolutely no reason why western Catholics can’t, also Saint Pope JPII had nothing but good things to say about St Gregory Palamas.

This is because they accidentally and naturally have the same calendar as they had before they came into full communion (the Eastern Orthodox calendar). They should really remove him from the calendar as did the Uniate Church. I would suggest researching the Council of Zamosc (1720).

Pope John Paul meant well, he also kissed the Koran, but we do not question his intentions. While he was Pope, that does not mean he knew everything about Gregory Palamas. I would consider the fact that this schism happened over 1000 years ago. The answers to this question were already answered centuries ago, so we don’t need to look at statements from the second half of the 1900s and of this century in order to know the truth of the matter

 

[Isaac14]

I don’t know which Pope said that, but if anyone says that they they are wrong regardless of who they are or what position they are in. Truth is objective.

Pope Francis said this in 2016 when he visited Georgia. I take it, then, that the Pope was wrong to say this?

 

[ziapueblo]

This is because they accidentally and naturally have the same calendar as they had before they came into full communion (the Eastern Orthodox calendar).

What? Have you read Orientalium Dignitas: On the Churches of the East, Pope Leo XIII - 1894; DECREE ON THE CATHOLIC CHURCHES OF THE EASTERN RITE ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964; APOSTOLIC LETTER ORIENTALE LUMEN OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY AND FAITHFUL TO MARK THE CENTENARY OF ORIENTALIUM DIGNITAS OF POPE LEO XIII?

By the way, in the early Church, East and West never had a common liturgical calendar other than Pascha and Christmas, and even then, it took centuries to hash out.

ZP

 

[Christianapologist]

So God said through Paul: Romans 10:9-10 : “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”

And God doesn’t lie…

 

[Paul_Edwards]

What? Have you read Orientalium Dignitas: On the Churches of the East, Pope Leo XIII

There is nothing wrong with using the same Calendar as the orthodox, but as a consequence some people have remained in it which should’ve been removed

 

[Paul_Edwards]

Pope Francis said this in 2016 when he visited Georgia. I take it, then, that the Pope was wrong to say this?

If anyone says that it is not the will of God that everyone becomes a Catholic, they are wrong, regardless of who they are or what position they hold. Pope Francis can answer that question himself by implication

 

[ziapueblo]

Not according to these Papal documents.

ZP