If I convert to orthodoxy will I go to hell?

[Margaret_Ann]

The Russian Greek Catholic Church should have its own bishop. They’re Catholic too!

 

[Neithan]

So a Jew or Buddhist or Hindu cannot be saved according to Unam Sanctam?

There is no salvation outside the church, and everyone in the church is subject to the Roman Pontiff. If they are saved, it is an extraordinary grace, and they are brought into the church spiritually before the moment of death. When are how that happens, God only knows.

 

[catholic03]

The Russian Greek Catholic Church should have its own bishop. They’re Catholic too!

I dream of a Russia where the Russian Greek Catholic Church is a visible minority (because, if we have to be honest, the Russian Orthodox aren’t going to want to reunite) like the UGCC is in the Ukraine.

Right now it only has a few parishes in Russia.

I trust our Holy Father. Maybe he will be the one to appoint the bishop.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

They’re in the U.S. too. At least they should have their own bishop here in the U.S. but then the RGCC in Russia wouldn’t be provided for unless PF did both appointments at the same time.

 

[catholic03]

They’re in the U.S. too. At least they should have their own bishop here in the U.S. but then the RGCC in Russia wouldn’t be provided for unless PF did both appointments at the same time.

It’s a messy situation.

The most prominent RGCC priest is Fr Lawrence Cross, of the parish in Melbourne, Australia.

He’s been working tirelessly to better his Church’s situation, especially in his attempts to get a bishop for the RGCC.

 

[dochawk]

who have speculated about Washington D.C. and America as being the Fourth Rome…

I’ve seen some of those “Fourth Rome” statements–and pretty much always in an attempt to bolder the notion of Third Rome . . .

They’re in the U.S. too. At least they should have their own bishop here in the U.S. but then the RGCC in Russia wouldn’t be provided for unless PF did both appointments at the same time.

Purportedly, Fr. Vivona was told that it would take five actual parishes in the US to name him as bishop, rather than the quasi-ordinary role he held. (Greco/Italo/Albanian)

 

[HomeschoolDad]

PilgrimMichelangelo:

who have speculated about Washington D.C. and America as being the Fourth Rome…

I’ve seen some of those “Fourth Rome” statements–and pretty much always in an attempt to bolder the notion of Third Rome . . .

I love my country, but America as the “Fourth Rome”… I am just sitting here shaking my head.

 

[AlNg]

If they are saved, it is an extraordinary grace, and they are brought into the church spiritually before the moment of death.

So Jews have to be subject to the Pope before they die otherwise they won’t be saved? Where is this written in the Bible?

 

[AlNg]

Something that has been taught infallibly can never be changed. However, it could be stated even more clearly,

You quoted Unam Sanctam as saying that:

“We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Does a Jew have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff in order to be saved? There was nothing about this in the Old Testament. And i don’t see it in the New Testament either. And further, the present teaching is that Catholics are not supposed to try to convert Jews. Isn’t it obvious that the teaching of Unam Sanctam has changed and that you do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff to be saved?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Something that has been taught infallibly can never be changed. However, it could be stated even more clearly,

You quoted Unam Sanctam as saying that:

“We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Does a Jew have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff in order to be saved?

We do not know what happens in the split-seconds at the moment of death. It may well be that the dying soul is given a flash of illumination, something like “dear soul, this is it, last call, here is the truth, you can accept it and be saved, or you can reject it and be damned, you’ve got to make up your mind now, there’s no turning back, which will it be?”. Various mystics speak of such a thing, in possibly more elegant language.

There was nothing about this in the Old Testament. And i don’t see it in the New Testament either.

Not all truths are confined to the Bible. And in OT times, Christ had not come yet and established His Church.

And further, the present teaching is that Catholics are not supposed to try to convert Jews.

We still have the commission to teach the truth of the Catholic Faith to all men, and if Jews happen to read and hear this truth, whether they accept it or not, is up to them. If a Jew comes to me and wants to know more about the Catholic Faith, I’ll be delighted to share with him and offer every proof I can.

Isn’t it obvious that the teaching of Unam Sanctam has changed and that you do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff to be saved?

No, but as you seem to allude to, some people have expressed concern about the proper interpretation of some of the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. I would welcome clarification of this from some who are experts on the Council, which admittedly I am not.

 

[Neithan]

Where is this written in the Bible?

Oh, it’s not. Sola scriptura is a Lutheran error. However, you can piece it together germanely from verses where Jesus says that no one comes to the Father except through him and that he will build his church on Peter.

 

[Wannano]

AlNg:

Where is this written in the Bible?

Oh, it’s not. Sola scriptura is a Lutheran error. However, you can piece it together germanely from verses where Jesus says that no one comes to the Father except through him and that he will build his church on Peter.

Unless I misunderstand…this post is evidence of hypocrisy.

 

[Neithan]

Please elaborate.

 

[Wannano]

I though that picking verses here and there to formulate and perpetuate an idea or principle was not an acceptable Catholic practice but a Protestant invention.

 

[Neithan]

It’s not an idea from scripture alone, but it’s consistent with verses in scripture.

This looks like something for a new thread.

Examples of those Protestant ideas you have in mind would clarify the difference between quoting scripture out of context to create a doctrine, and showing how a doctrine is in harmony with scripture.

 

[Wannano]

Not sure how you gathered that I have any more Protestant ideas in my mind than Catholic ideas, but yes, maybe another thread.

I am not even sure what it is you and @AlNg are talking about so I realize I am disturbing a thread. I just happened to read your post and was smitten by your comment that sola scriptura was a Lutheran error in answer to a question of where something was written in the Bible …only to back up your position by something written the Bible.

Sorry for being off topic.

 

[Neithan]

Since you drew the comparison with a Protestant practice I thought you had some example you were thinking of. Supporting doctrine with scriptural examples was not Luther’s error, but claiming that scripture was the sole source of doctrine was.

Sorry for being off topic.

No problem but if you want to continue a discussion about sola scriptura we can start a new thread.

 

[AlNg]

We do not know what happens in the split-seconds at the moment of death.

So in the split second before the moment of death a Jew will be asked if he will submit to the Roman Pontiff?

 

[AlNg]

To suggest that Orthodox saints are not either in heaven, or on their way there, is a really strict interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus . The Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox as “true churches” — how can you be a “true church” and “outside the Church” at the same time? Are they more in the same position as the SSPX, after a fashion, with the added wrinkle of refusing submission to the Roman Pontiff? I don’t know.

As I already mentioned, I think that there has been a change in the teaching. I see two different teachings:

1. EENS: AFAIK, EENS means that if you know that the Catholic church is the true Church and you willingly and freely refuse membership, then you cannot be saved. And further, that if you (Catholic or non-Catholic) are saved, then your salvation comes from Christ through the Catholic Church.
2. Unam Sanctam: From the words of the declaration - in order to be saved, you have to submit to the Roman Pontiff.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

We do not know what happens in the split-seconds at the moment of death.

So in the split second before the moment of death a Jew will be asked if he will submit to the Roman Pontiff?

He may be shown all truth, of which this is a part. No one knows. At the very least, we do know that anyone who enters into heaven, will not be left for all eternity ignorant of what they should have believed and embraced in this life. Can you be blamed for what you don’t know, or what you can’t grasp or assimilate? There are people on this earth who think it would be a grievous sin, perhaps even a mortal sin (if they have that concept) to accept Christ or to accept the Catholic Church. They would violate their consciences in so doing. Does God allow the scales to fall from their eyes at that last instant? Do they get to see all truth as it really is — including truths about the Catholic Church and the Roman Pontiff — and say yea or nay at the last nanosecond? Your guess is as good as mine. I hope they do.

As I already mentioned, I think that there has been a change in the teaching. I see two different teachings:

1. EENS: AFAIK, EENS means that if you know that the Catholic church is the true Church and you willingly and freely refuse membership, then you cannot be saved. And further, that if you (Catholic or non-Catholic) are saved, then your salvation comes from Christ through the Catholic Church.
2. Unam Sanctam: From the words of the declaration - in order to be saved, you have to submit to the Roman Pontiff.

I don’t see a conflict here. Salvation comes from Christ through the Church, and the Pope is the head of that Church.