If I convert to orthodoxy will I go to hell?

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HomeschoolDad said:
I love my country, but America as the “Fourth Rome”… I am just sitting here shaking my head.
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Welcome to the club . . .

Doubly ironic as the US is the only nation I can name in history to actively decline empire (I mean at the end of WWII, not every little thing ever done).
AlNg said:
So Jews have to be subject to the Pope before they die otherwise they won’t be saved? Where is this written in the Bible?
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“Behold! I take back the rainbow, and revoke the Old Covenant.”

Oh, wait . . .

The best explanation I’ve seen is actually in C.S. Lewis The Last Battle with the solider and Aslan . . .
 
AlNg said:
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AlNg:
So Jews have to be subject to the Pope before they die otherwise they won’t be saved? Where is this written in the Bible?
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“Behold! I take back the rainbow, and revoke the Old Covenant.”

Oh, wait . . .

The best explanation I’ve seen is actually in C.S. Lewis The Last Battle with the solider and Aslan . . .
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I will gladly defer to Jack Lewis rather than rely upon my poor scribblings.

I always chuckle at the story where his friend Tolkien is narrating a tale and Lewis says “oh, no, not another @%#@! elf!”
 
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HomeschoolDad said:
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HomeschoolDad:
I always chuckle at the story where his friend Tolkien is narrating a tale and Lewis says “oh, no, not another @%#@! elf!”
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So it is a joke after all and not to be taken seriously.
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You are referring to the Lewis and Tolkien anecdote, right?

I really think we’re done here — I have said everything I can say about this subject. If somebody would like to step in here and explain why both Unam Sanctam and the teaching of Vatican II are true, have at it. Stay well and peace be to you.
 
Try reading Fr. Laisney’s book on EENS. He actually has a true story about that topic. I’d post a link but it might get flagged so that’s why I’m not posting it.
 
PilgrimMichelangelo said:
I’ve seen some of those “Fourth Rome” statements–and pretty much always in an attempt to bolder the notion of Third Rome . . .
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Well, the first Rome was the Latin Rome, because that was the seat of power of the Roman Empire, the biggest empire in the world, abided…

The Second Rome was Constantinople, because the first Rome moved there in the face of the first Rome being overrun by barbarians…

Russia likes to think of herself as the third Rome, because of the decline of Christianity abiding in Istanbul under the Turks - And Russia is the largest and most powerful Orthodox nation in the world…

The USA is simply the most powerful nation on earth, and it would only be logical, due to the break-down of the Protestant majority which is and has been occurring here for the last 50 years, to establish not an Orthodox country, but an Orthodox presence that would serve as a haven for the headship of the Church were Russia to re-submerge as she had done under the Atheists for 80 years… Rome never came back from her loss as an empire, nor did the New Rome, but Russia has done so… The US has a very long road to travel before Orthodoxy here will ever be in any condition to seat the Ecumenical Headship of the Orthodox Faith… Certainly not in my lifetime… Which isn’t saying all that much, mind you! 🙂

But the fact that the Christian Faith is drawn to the most powerful “capitals” for its greatest impact at the highest places of influence in the world stage is nothing novel…

geo
 
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George720 said:
The USA is simply the most powerful nation on earth, and it would only be logical, due to the break-down of the Protestant majority which is and has been occurring here for the last 50 years, to establish not an Orthodox country, but an Orthodox presence that would serve as a haven for the headship of the Church were Russia to re-submerge as she had done under the Atheists for 80 years… Rome never came back from her loss as an empire, nor did the New Rome, but Russia has done so… The US has a very long road to travel before Orthodoxy here will ever be in any condition to seat the Ecumenical Headship of the Orthodox Faith… Certainly not in my lifetime… Which isn’t saying all that much, mind you!
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So the view of Second, Third, and now Fourth Rome assumes that Orthodoxy is the One True Church and that she will find herself the most powerful home she can?

I mean no offense in saying so, and I could be wrong, but I don’t see America ever adopting an Orthodox mindset. Even with all the mass migration and the salad bowl of diversity that we’ve become, at its very root and branch, it is a Western society, and its foundations are in Western “Enlightenment” philosophy and republican democracy. Americans tend to be very practical — oh, heavens, are they ever practical! — if something doesn’t have a practical, preferably money-making slant to it, then Americans just dismiss it as useless and laugh it off — and aside from sexual morality (because the heart wants what it wants, as do the libido and the ego), they tend to be very black-and-white thinkers. And freedom? Whatever you do, don’t tell an American that they’re not free to do something. Just don’t. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion — they’re in the American DNA. I’m sorry, I don’t see anything here that is compatible with a mass conversion to Orthodoxy, and the transformation of America into a “Fourth Orthodox Rome”. America could go with a liberal form of Catholicism, perhaps — really, to a great extent it already does (if you think of modern “cafeteria” Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists and others as a single amorphous entity) — but Orthodoxy? I just don’t see it.
 
AlNg said:
I don’t see the answer given being credible: Just a split second before he dies, a Jew is told to submit to the Roman Pontiff or else?
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Probably not. We can be forgiven sins after death, hence it is mostly desire for God that saves the soul (and merit of good works even of unbeliever- even in OT non-Jews who are rightful are praised). He is, through Purification, made member of Church (either Church Suffering in Purgatory or Church Triumphant in Heaven). Pope is head of Church Militant and hence those in Heaven are not subject to Him. But while on earth, entire mankind IS subject to Roman Pontiff- whether they recognize it or not. Same way, everything is subject to God whether they recognize it or not.
HomeschoolDad said:
but Orthodoxy? I just don’t see it.
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Perhaps Western Orthodoxy? 😃
George720 said:
But the fact that the Christian Faith is drawn to the most powerful “capitals” for its greatest impact at the highest places of influence in the world stage is nothing novel…
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Other than Rome and Constantinople, this has not been a thing or was it? I understand theory about Rome’s primacy being based on Martyrdom of Popes and it being capital (something that was denied during Chalcedon by Patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch as well as Rome…) but I quite think that is where this pattern ends. Or I might just be missing something.
 
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Probably not, but it would be Greekizied(?) Thing is, Western Orthodoxy adopted Greek practices to seem more Orthodox and abolished some of it’s Latin patrimony. It’s not a stretch but basically invert scenario of heavily Latinized Eastern Catholic Church and you get Western Orthodoxy.
 
OrbisNonSufficit said:
But while on earth, entire mankind IS subject to Roman Pontiff- whether they recognize it or not.
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In that case the declaration of Unam Sanctam is meaningless. It says:
HomeschoolDad said:
“We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
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But according to you, every human creature is already subject to the Roman Pontiff.
Anyway your statement is not falsifiable. For example Please try to falsify the following statements:
But while on earth, the entire mankind IS subject to His all Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch whether they recognize it or not.
Or:
But while on earth, the entire mankind IS subject to the Archbishop of Cantebury whether they recognize it or not - or whether the Archbishop of Cantebury recognizes it or not.
And please show us where Jesus says that you have to submit to the Roman Pontiff in order to be saved and where Jesus says that the entire mankind is subject to the Roman Pontiff including all the Jews and all the Hindus in India.
 
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AlNg said:
And please show us where Jesus says that you have to submit to the Roman Pontiff in order to be saved and where Jesus says that the entire mankind is subject to the Roman Pontiff including all the Jews and all the Hindus in India.
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Can you point where does Jesus say that Mary was ever-Virgin? Or let’s not limit that to Jesus- we Catholics recognize Holy Trinity so Holy Spirit can say that too, right? He says that in Unam Sanctam. If you don’t trust authority of Church then why believe only ordained Priests can consecrate Eucharist? Where does Jesus say Russian Orthodox Church holds any authority? Where does Jesus say we do not need circumcision anymore? Etc etc.
 
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OrbisNonSufficit said:
Probably not, but it would be Greekizied(?) Thing is, Western Orthodoxy adopted Greek practices to seem more Orthodox and abolished some of it’s Latin patrimony. It’s not a stretch but basically invert scenario of heavily Latinized Eastern Catholic Church and you get Western Orthodoxy.
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The word would probably be “Hellenized”.

I see what you mean, based on my very limited knowledge of Western Orthodoxy. Do they not use icons and insert a very explicit epiklesis into the Western liturgy, to conform to the East’s belief that the Mysteries do not become the Body and Blood of Christ until the Holy Spirit has descended upon Them? (Or rather, we know what they are not before the eucharistic prayer, and we know what and Who They are after the epiklesis, but as far as “in between”, well, that is a mystery we do not need to be thinking about. Do I have that even sort-of-right?)
 
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HomeschoolDad said:
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HomeschoolDad:
Do I have that even sort-of-right?
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I am insure about icons but they use leavened bread and have explicit epiclesis for sure. Your explanation of Eastern belief about Real Presence seems right but I am Latin Catholic after all
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Yes, they use leavened bread, and then compress it down into something resembling a flat, circular host. That seems kind of odd. It seems to me they’d find a way to bake a flatbread, like a thin, hard pita or lavash, that is somewhat leavened but doesn’t rise much.

As long as we’re on the subject, why do Eastern Christians use leavened bread, when presumably Our Lord used unleavened Passover bread?
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I’m sorry, I don’t see anything here that is compatible with a mass conversion to Orthodoxy, and the transformation of America into a “Fourth Orthodox Rome”.
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Well, it took the first Rome some 300 years to convert the Roman Empire, and it was not done in the first Rome but the Second… And the Second Rome lasted a thousand years establishing the Russian Orthodox Lands, which rose until Constantinople was down now to less that 2,000 souls in the whole of Istanbul…

I do not know if the USA will ever convert to Orthodoxy, but if the Orthodox and the Latins were to resolve their differences, I do not think it would take 300 years…

otoh, Christianity arose under repression, nor freedom, and the prosperity of America is itself, together with its freedoms, Ann argument against Christianity taking much root here… What is needed are American Saints, born and bred right here in the US of A… And I am seeing a few of these being raised up by God… There are doubtless others not yet visible… I know Elder Ephraim came here from Mt Athos in order to help save Orthodoxy from being still-born in the US, because of the weakness of the Greeks and of the other Orthodox faithful… So He established many monasteries, and some are producing fruits… American fruits…

So we’ll see what happens… American born Saints are kind of rare, don’t you think?

Do you know any?

geo
 
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George720 said:
I do not know if the USA will ever convert to Orthodoxy, but if the Orthodox and the Latins were to resolve their differences, I do not think it would take 300 years…
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That’s the big key — if they were to resolve their differences, and become visibly one Church.

Time will tell.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
Is it too much of a stretch to say that Western Orthodoxy, if it were in union with the Holy Father, would be essentially traditional Roman Catholicism?
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I don’t think so, the western liturgy looks like a very traditional EF mass in the vernacular (with a few changes to conform with Orthodoxy), take a look:


Very beautiful if you ask me.
HomeschoolDad said:
Do they not use icons
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No, they definitely use icons:
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Again very beautiful if you ask me, I wouldn’t mind at all if more of our altars looked like this.

Anywho there are some minor differences, but if they were in union with Rome they would look like a little different version (think the anglican use of the Roman Rite) of traditional Catholicism imho.
 
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