If I do not go away, the Counselor will not come

[milimac]

Can someone shed more light on this scripture passage?:
John 16:7:
John16:7:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Why would the Counselor not come unless Jesus ascended to Heaven?

 

[Francine_Peters]

Why would the Counselor not come unless Jesus ascended to Heaven?

Because the Spirit proceeds equally through the Father and the Son, the Spirit could not proceed until the Son had completed his “away team” mission and had taken his place at the right hand of the Father on the “bridge”.

 

[epostle]

Right on, Francine. Here is another way of saying the same thing.

In Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the will of both the Father and the Son, or in other words, through the activity which they engage in, otherwise known as “love”.

The Holy Spirit is poured forth through the exchange of love between the Father and the Son. This is why perhaps Jesus says to the Apostles: " Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7)

In the eternal economy of the Trinity, therefore, a person ‘proceeds’ from the love between two other persons. And so, the Holy Spirit is love ‘proceeding’ or ‘coming from’ the first two persons of the Blessed Trinity.
catholic-legate.com/articles/antitrinity.html

 

[Eileen_T]

Forgive my ignorance, but isn’t this the thing the EO disagreed about causing the Schism (among other things, of course)?

I totally agree with the explanations given BTW

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The Spirit inspired and empowered to apostles to move out on their own. I don’t think they would have done that as long as Jesus was visilbly present to lead them. I think this could be used to argue that they would not have been open to the Spirit as long as Jesus was there.

Just my speculation, and I haven’t thought it out fully.

 

[dacoobob]

Francine and epostle, your posts would imply that the Spirit did not exist while the Son was on Earth. Since I’m sure you don’t believe this, I don’t think you can make the argument you do.

 

[Eileen_T]

Francine and epostle, your posts would imply that the Spirit did not exist while the Son was on Earth. Since I’m sure you don’t believe this, I don’t think you can make the argument you do.

The Spirit was with the Father while the Son was on earth, when Jesus returned to the Father they sent the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and the Church.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I assume it is either Bush or Clinton depending on the political preferences of the OP.

 

[Nita]

The Spirit inspired and empowered to apostles to move out on their own. I don’t think they would have done that as long as Jesus was visilbly present to lead them. I think this could be used to argue that they would not have been open to the Spirit as long as Jesus was there.

Just my speculation, and I haven’t thought it out fully.

You speculate with the best!!
In his commentary on the gospel of St. John, St. Augustine interprets this verse in a similar manner.
newadvent.org/fathers/1701094.htm
(There’s a typo on the New Advent site - the heading says John 16:44-47, but it’s actually John 16:4-7)

Nita

 

[milimac]

You speculate with the best!!
In his commentary on the gospel of St. John, St. Augustine interprets this verse in a similar manner.
newadvent.org/fathers/1701094.htm
(There’s a typo on the New Advent site - the heading says John 16:44-47, but it’s actually John 16:4-7)

Nita

Thank you Nita (and Augustine). I think this was most helpful. It seems that it wasn’t so much that Jesus could not send the Holy Spirit unless he went away, but that we couldn’t receive the Holy Spirit unless he “went away”. Wherever one person of the Trinity is present, all are present, so Jesus’ promise, “I will be with you to the end of the age” is still fulfilled.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Because the Spirit proceeds equally through the Father and the Son, the Spirit could not proceed until the Son had completed his “away team” mission and had taken his place at the right hand of the Father on the “bridge”.

The Spirit was with the Father while the Son was on earth, when Jesus returned to the Father they sent the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and the Church.

Didn’t the Spirit descend upon Jesus when Jesus was being baptized in the river?

 

[rcjones]

Didn’t the Spirit descend upon Jesus when Jesus was being baptized in the river?

Yes. In sensus plenior, the book of Jonah tells the Holy Spirit’s role in the life of Christ. He was joined with him at the baptism, separated from him upon the cross, and grieved, and reunited in resurrection.

He took counsel from the Son, which is why he is called “Another Comforter”. The Son is the first comforter.

The first verse of Jonah, in sensus plenior, has Christ sending the Holy Ghost, which agrees that he is sent from both the Father and the Son.

Discerning sensus plenior is child’s play. God speaks in riddles and double entendre.

Jonah 1:1 ¶ Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai,

Who is the Word of the Lord? Christ
Jonah means ‘dove’ which represents the Holy Ghost
son also means ‘builder’ in word play
Amittai means ‘truth’

It is a riddle in double entendre: Christ came to dove, the builder of truth.

The rules that constrain sensus plenior from being free-for-all allegory are here:

sensusplenior.net/?page_id=379

So in the context of the OP: The Holy Ghost was to reluctant to leave the Son again. Imagine 3 days of separation as experienced by an eternal Deity. God himself was split, and it seemed to be an eternity.

With Christ returned to eternity, the Holy Ghost could fill us without separating from Him again.