If I dont believe in it, it doesnt exist

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I recently move in with my moms sister who happens to be Catholic, but not very knowledgable, and tends to be more liberal. We recently had a debate, about witch craft/harry potter. She said that since she doesnt believe in witch craft, or satan, it doesnt exist, and neither can have any affect on her.
I told her that many people dont believe in God, but that doesnt mean that He doesnt exist, or limit His power. She wasnt convinced, and I was wondering if anyone had any other advice, or helpful hints. thank you!!

Rachel <><
 
I think it’s a good idea in these instances to point out historical errors that the world has collectively made and ask whether they really were errors. A good one is geocentrism. You could say, “Look at one time the vast majority of all astronomers believed, following the Ptolemaic system, that the Earth was at the center of the solar system and that all celestial bodies revolved around the Earth. Then Copernicus came along and introduced a system that made better sense of the data and had fewer ad hoc explanations in it, and today almost no educated person believes in geocentrism. They believe in heliocentrism because, well, it’s true. All the planets in the system really do revolve around the sun. Now, what did our belief do to reality? Was it the case that when nearly everyone believed in geocentrism that meant that reality conformed to our beliefs? Was the Sun at that time really revolving around the Earth, but then when Copernicus published his heliocentric theory, all the sudden the whole solar system became oriented differently just so it could conform itself to what we want to believe it to be?”

I find these sorts of examples to be fruitful because it can help to show just how absurd the suggestion is that when we think something to be the case, it is necessarily that way.

Another route to take is that that idea of hers would violate the most fundamental law of all thought-the law of non-contradiction. Symbolized as ~(p & ~p) It is not the case that both p and not-p are both true in the same sense. For after all, couldn’t we find people on this planet all of whom disagree on some issue or another as to whether something is true? If anything is certain in these instances, it is that when two people are contradicting each other in their beliefs, they can’t both be true, right. They may both be false (unless they’ve exhausted the alternatives), but not both true. There are Protestants who believe that the Pope is the antichrist. Does their mere belief make him the antichrist? If so, what about all those many people in the world who believe that he is not antichrist? If their belief makes it so, then the pope is both antichrist and not antichrist, which is plainly contradictory. May it never be that we tolerate such irrationality!
 
It appears she is a person who does not feel much fear of witchcraft or satan. (Isn’t that another way of saying you don’t believe in those things). I believe she is much better off not believing (and not being afraid of) those two things than anyone who does not believe (and is not afraid of)God.

“Fear of the Lord” was deemed a great virtue in the Old testament. I think it is very near to “Faith” in the new testament. Fear of satan or witchcraft is not given much importance in either place.

I think Your mom’s sister is not in particularly grave danger for not believing in those things - especially if she has a strong faith in God.

-Jim
 
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trogiah:
I believe she is much better off not believing (and not being afraid of) those two things than anyone who does not believe (and is not afraid of)God.
I think Your mom’s sister is not in particularly grave danger for not believing in those things - especially if she has a strong faith in God.
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Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I think NOT being aware of the snares of the devil puts us in more danger because we’re not putting on our holy armour (prayer, sacrament, confession, discernment) to defend ourselves, and because we are more apt to be deceived if we are not being prudent.

Our spiritual enemy has many weapons, including the occult and witchcraft. If we’re not at least a little familiar with their trap, we can easily fall into it without even knowing it.

“Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith…” 1 Peter 5:8-9

“…Put on the breastplate of faith and love, for a helmet the hope of salvation.” 1 Thess. 5:8

I remember a song from the 80s by a Christian artist:

“It’s getting very simple now, because no one believes in me anymore. I used to have to sneak around, but now they just open their door. They’re not watching for my tricks since no one believes in me anymore.”
 
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Didi:
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. I think NOT being aware of the snares of the devil puts us in more danger because we’re not putting on our holy armour (prayer, sacrament, confession, discernment) to defend ourselves, and because we are more apt to be deceived if we are not being prudent.

I remember a song from the 80s by a Christian artist:

“It’s getting very simple now, because no one believes in me anymore. I used to have to sneak around, but now they just open their door. They’re not watching for my tricks since no one believes in me anymore.”
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It wasn’t clear to me weather the original person in question (mom’s sister) was strong in her faith but simply not knowledgable about satan and witchcraft, or weak in her faith and swept along by any passing fad.

A person who is strong in their faith; who prays, receives sacraments and studies scripture - simply for the love of God - is well defended against the powers of darkness even if those powers are not a conscious concern.

On the other hand, a person who does not have a strong faith and love for God can be easily swept along by temptations and deceptions.

The gospel of Luke recalls the time Jesus sent out 72 disciples. They came back thrilled to have power over dark forces - but notice Jesus’s resonse.

17
The seventy (-two) returned rejoicing, and said, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us because of your name.”
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Jesus said, “I have observed Satan fall like lightning from the sky.
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Behold, I have given you the power ‘to tread upon serpents’ and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will harm you.
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Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Our primary focus should be God and His Kingdom. At different times we may be better off having some knowledge of the forces of evil. But a strong faith in God will always be more important than a weak faith in the devil. God does not want us to live in any more fear than is necessary.

-Jim
 
Pray the Rosary for her, and offer it up to the Blessed Virgin Mary on behalf of her and those that are like minded with her.
 
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cowgirl:
I recently move in with my moms sister who happens to be Catholic, but not very knowledgable, and tends to be more liberal. We recently had a debate, about witch craft/harry potter. She said that since she doesnt believe in witch craft, or satan, it doesnt exist, and neither can have any affect on her.
I told her that many people dont believe in God, but that doesnt mean that He doesnt exist, or limit His power. She wasnt convinced, and I was wondering if anyone had any other advice, or helpful hints. thank you!!

Rachel <><
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The rcc practices both witchcraft and mysticism; not to mention necromancy and idolatry. I believe you asked in the wrong forum.
 
I’d say the best method would be the track some others have put forth of suggesting things that one could not believe in but would still be able to affect him. Back before theories on gravity, everyone was just as stuck to the planet as they are now. Germ theory used to be considered ridiculous (you mean to tell me that tiny invisible creatures are what make people sick? you’re crazy!), but people died of disease all the same. You can probably think of examples on your own.

As to the relative importance of believing in the Devil, I remember hearing a quote (and I know someone out there can produce the writer and exact quote for me) that the devil’s greatest victory was convincing people he didn’t exist. There IS something to be said for stressing a vibrant relationship with Christ over awareness of the devil, but can someone have a truly well-informed and healthy relationship with God if they deny the existence of His adversary?
 
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Luke24:
The rcc practices both witchcraft and mysticism; not to mention necromancy and idolatry. I believe you asked in the wrong forum.
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Instead of throwing out inflammatory posts like that without offering any specific claim that can be evaluated and debated, why not take some of your concerns and start specific threads to address them. From the nature of your remarks, I would suggest the following:
  • Honor paid to the saints by the Catholic Church actually constitutes latria (if you don’t know what this is, examine an etymology of your charge of ido-latry).
  • Catholic prayer for the dead(?)/intercession of the saints(=dead)(?) is a form of necromancy. (Please provide your working definition of necromancy and the practice you feel represents it in authentic Catholic piety).
  • Catholic practice X is witchcraft because…
  • Inauthentic forms of mysticism are present in the Catholic Church OR I reject each and every form of mysticism as contrary to the Christian life.
I’m sure you could find lots of people on the forums to discuss those issues and any others which might have laid the foundation for your rather incendiary comment.
 
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Luke24:
The rcc practices both witchcraft and mysticism; not to mention necromancy and idolatry. I believe you asked in the wrong forum.
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Your charges are false.

Moreso, why don’t you provide evidence of your claims?
 
The idea that existence is determined by someone’s subjective belief is ludicrous. Other folks here have pointed out examples that you can use to hopefully show your aunt just how ludicrous this position is. I don’t think your aunt has thought this through at all, and thinking is, um, rather important, wouldn’t you say? In addition to being very irrational, it is also very un-Catholic—Catholicism is more than feelings and impressions, it is concerned with objective Truth. Truth is NOT relative and its existence does not rely on our intellectual assent or happy thoughts (properly speaking, Truth is actually a Somebody, not a something).

Luke24,
The secularists in this country love to portray Christians as ignorant, unintelligent, uneducated and intolerant: definitely people who ought not to be in positions of political power, because they would impose their ignorance and craziness on all. Your post is an example of how it is they can come up with such a stereotype—your post is ammunition for the anti-religious in this country, as it displays the traits of unblinking stupidity and hostility that are then attributed to the rest of us. Do yourself, and all Christians, a favor by restricting yourself to topics that you actually know something about.
 
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cowgirl:
We recently had a debate, about witch craft/harry potter. She said that since she doesnt believe in witch craft, or satan, it doesnt exist, and neither can have any affect on her.
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Tell your aunt that Jesus says there is a Satan.

or does your aunt say that Jesus was wrong?
 
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cowgirl:
She said that since she doesnt believe in witch craft, or satan, it doesnt exist…
Rachel <><
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Hi Rachel, sounds like you’re dealing with the lowest type of argument: human relativism. yuck.

Anyway, ever heard of the “blind spot test”? It’s a pretty big thing in the science of Psychology. Here’s a link, and you can try it (it’s really cool–everyone should try it). It basically goes to show us that even though we may not be aware of something, it still can continue to exist. --Reality is still there, even if we somehow don’t think it is.

faculty.washington.edu/chudler/chvision.html

Hope it helps a little. 🙂
–Jason

p.s. You can just ignore all the other experiments on that website, lol. I just went to google.com to find the blind spot test, and used to first site that looked good enough. 🙂
 
thank you for all the advice, most of which i used previsouly. its hard for me to deal with those that are ignorant, and be kind about it as well. thanks again,
Rachel <><
 
Even as you try to convince your aunt of the realities of the evil one and of evil things, you should stress that you’re not trying to make her fearful. If it sounds like you are fear-mongering, you could shut down her receptiveness altogether.

As Christians we can have faith that God will protect us from evil. I think it’s healthy to fear the devil’s temptations, but we needn’t fixate on whatever other powers he may be able to manifest, nor need we ever fear the spells of witches. Our God is more powerful.
 
“I think it’s a good idea in these instances to point out historical errors that the world has collectively made and ask whether they really were errors. A good one is geocentrism”

Too bad heliocentricism is not proven… :hmmm:
 
This discussion is good but I must say…

Nothing in Harry Potter has anything to do with the occult or witchcraft. It is fantasy entertainment.
 
Okay, so by her reasoning, if I don’t believe cancer exists, I will never get it, and people don’t die from it every day.
 
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