If I said this would you think I violated the 1st commandment?

[RosaryCrusader]

“My brothers and sisters of different religions - Christian and non Christian - we believe in the same God who created us and put us together on earth.”

Or,

“I respect a non-Christian’s beliefs, practices, and writings.”

 

[ConstantineTG]

“My brothers and sisters of different religions - Christian and non Christian - we believe in the same God who created us and put us together on earth.”

Or,

“I respect a non-Christian’s beliefs, practices, and writings.”

God is beyond our reason and understanding. As Catholics we have the benefit of God himself coming down as man and teaching us what we need to understand about Him in this world. Other people didn’t have this understanding and would have had to figure out things on their own. That is why Judaism and Christianity has so many similarities with many ancient religions, because these people tried to form their own understanding of God. And while they ended up making up their own religion, the similarities do make us think that perhaps they did find God in His creation, but because of the lack of proper guidance their understanding is lacking and had to make up a lot of the details.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

So your answer is…

 

[Genesis315]

“My brothers and sisters of different religions - Christian and non Christian - we believe in the same God who created us and put us together on earth.”

Or,

“I respect a non-Christian’s beliefs, practices, and writings.”

For the first one it would only violate the 1st Commandment if in fact those persons being addressed were idolators (ie worshipped things–real or imaginary–of a contingent essense) and did not adore the one non-contingent Creator on which the existence of all else depends.

For the second one, it would only violate the 1st Commandment if you intended to imply or give the impression of religious indifferentism, rather than in a spirit of charity toward one’s neighbor (try treating someone’s beliefs and practices with disrespect and see how long that person will listen to your persuading them of the truth of Catholicism).

ps: what’s the source and context of your signature’s quote? It seems to violate the traditional principle of the natural rights of a parent over their children–that kind of action was not permissable. Such aspirations have been refuted by St. Thomas among others (obviously Protestants did not exist in his time, but the same principles apply).

 

[Barbkw]

I found this in the Catechism, it writes:

The Church and non-Christians

839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.” [LG 16] [856]

**The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. **

When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, [Cf. NA 4] “the first to hear the Word of God.” [Roman Missal, Good Friday 13: General Intercessions, VI] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, [Rom 9:4-5] “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” [Rom 11:29] [63, 147]

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. [674, 597]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” [LG 16; cf. NA 3]

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: [360]

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city… [NA 1]

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” [LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53] [28, 856]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: [29]

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. [LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25]

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood. [St. Augustine, Serm. 96, 7, 9: PL 38, 588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18, 118: PL 16, 297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21] [30, 953, 1219]

 

[ConstantineTG]

So your answer is…

LOL, sorry. Someone needed to work on my PC and I got cut off, I hit submit anyway

My point was that to say that different religions believe in the same God is not blaspheming God. But its just that we who are gifted with more knowledge about God understand better than those who do not have this benefit and thus we do not treat their misunderstanding of the nature of God as an outright blaspheme but rather as someone innocent from the truth.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

I found this in the Catechism, it writes:

The Church and non-Christians

839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.” [LG 16] [856]

**The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. **

When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, [Cf. NA 4] “the first to hear the Word of God.” [Roman Missal, Good Friday 13: General Intercessions, VI] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, [Rom 9:4-5] “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” [Rom 11:29] [63, 147]

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. [674, 597]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” [LG 16; cf. NA 3]

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: [360]

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city… [NA 1]

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” [LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53] [28, 856]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: [29]

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair. [LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25]

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood. [St. Augustine, Serm. 96, 7, 9: PL 38, 588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18, 118: PL 16, 297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21] [30, 953, 1219]

The catechism isn’t saying what I think you’re trying to imply. Do we believe in the same “God(s)” as hindus, animists, buddhists, wiccans et. al? Do we respect false religions themselves or do we respect the individuals who believe them?

Let’s keep this simple…

 

[RosaryCrusader]

LOL, sorry. Someone needed to work on my PC and I got cut off, I hit submit anyway

My point was that to say that different religions believe in the same God is not blaspheming God. But its just that we who are gifted with more knowledge about God understand better than those who do not have this benefit and thus we do not treat their misunderstanding of the nature of God as an outright blaspheme but rather as someone innocent from the truth.

So, your answer to this thread: “If I said this would you think I violated the 1st commandment?” would be ‘NO.’

Accordingly when Moses came down from Mt. Sinai only to be met by a golden calf and the rears of those bowed down to it - he should’ve tried to find the good in the false religion of paganism and realize that God was not blasphemed?

 

[Timothysis]

Accordingly when Moses came down from Mt. Sinai only to be met by a golden calf and the rears of those bowed down to it - he should’ve tried to find the good in the false religion of paganism and realize that God was not blasphemed?

You’re making an argument simply for arguments sake.

Certainly the Jews were wrong to worship the golden calf because they already knew of the one True God. People who are do not possess that realization need to be treated with respect and courtesy. One should never look down upon another simply because they are ignorant.

 

[ConstantineTG]

So, your answer to this thread: “If I said this would you think I violated the 1st commandment?” would be ‘NO.’

Accordingly when Moses came down from Mt. Sinai only to be met by a golden calf and the rears of those bowed down to it - he should’ve tried to find the good in the false religion of paganism and realize that God was not blasphemed?

The issue there is that the Israelites know God and then willfully rejected Him. My statement covers those who did not know God from the prophets, Jesus, or the Church.

To receive knowledge of God and reject Him is a serious sin and would be a violation of the 1st commandment. But those who are born into paganism and have never known God the way we do are not held up to the same standard because they didn’t have a choice to begin with.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

The above quotes were actually reworded but from the USCCB’s suggested prayers of the faithful for the anniversary of the September 11 attacks as reported on another forum.

usccb.org/seia/document_2.pdf

For our brothers and sisters of different faiths, Christian and non Christian, that we demonstrate respect and love for one another since we believe in the same God who made us all and placed us together on earth, We pray to the Lord.

For those who believe differently about God than we do,** that we respect their beliefs and practices** as we would want them to respect ours, We pray to the Lord.

For all who follow Christ and use the name Christian, that we show repect for the beliefs, practices and writings of those of different faiths as we should want them to have respect for ours, We pray to the Lord.

There’s a few points to make:

1. We don’t believe in the same ‘god’ as non-Christians. We don’t believe in false deities which the Bible calls devils. Nor do non-Christians believe in Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, or the Blessed Trinity.
2. We don’t esteem or respect false religions. We respect other human beings who may belong to these false religions but we do not esteem the religion itself; it’s beliefs, practices or writings.

This is religious indifferentism at it’s finest coming from the USCCB!

 

[viveret]

usccb.org/seia/document_2.pdf

For our brothers and sisters of different faiths, Christian and non Christian, that we demonstrate respect and love for one another since we believe in the same God who made us all and placed us together on earth, We pray to the Lord.

For those who believe differently about God than we do,** that we respect their beliefs and practices** as we would want them to respect ours, We pray to the Lord.

For all who follow Christ and use the name Christian, that we show repect for the beliefs, practices and writings of those of different faiths as we should want them to have respect for ours, We pray to the Lord.

Christians, represented by the Catholic Church, have managed to engage other faiths in meaningful dialogue–
With Buddhists, there has been success.
With Jews also, there has been success.
I don’t know if any dialogue has been tried with Hindus, but I think it is possible.
The Jains would be very interested in Catholic teaching, particularly concerning pro-life issues. A dialogue is certainly possible with them.
I seriously doubt any dialogue with Muslims is possible.

And while I would advocate dialogue with other faiths, in no way would I proclaim their teaching as being holy.
The most important characteristic of our church is that it is holy. It is of God, and not of imagination.
To “respect” can mean many things, but by no means, does it mean to dignify the profane as if it were holy.

 

[Sirach2]

So the truth comes out, OP. You are publicly taking a radical stand against the USCCB. I do not believe this is wise, and shows your complete disrespect of the clergy by publicly magnifiying their alleged error. It is well known that you are an advocate of EENS, and we’ve gone round and round in former threads over your erroneous interpretation of the Church’s documents on this.

I am very sorry to see that you are now imputing the error to our Bishops.

The catechism isn’t saying what I think you’re trying to imply.

And in addition. imputing error to the Catechism.

 

[At_Trent]

So the truth comes out, OP. You are publicly taking a radical stand against the USCCB. I do not believe this is wise, and shows your complete disrespect of the clergy by publicly magnifiying their alleged error. It is well known that you are an advocate of EENS, and we’ve gone round and round in former threads over your erroneous interpretation of the Church’s documents on this.

I am very sorry to see that you are now imputing the error to our Bishops.

And in addition. imputing error to the Catechism.

Whether you agree with RC or not, what is wrong with being an advocate of EENS ?
And quoting saints ?

How is stating an opinion that one may be interpreting the CCC in the wrong manner imputing error on the CCC ?

Honest questions, I’m not taking sides.

:

 

[Aramis]

“My brothers and sisters of different religions - Christian and non Christian - we believe in the same God who created us and put us together on earth.”

Or,

“I respect a non-Christian’s beliefs, practices, and writings.”

I wouldn’t, but I’d be cautioning you on the first because it appears to be approaching universalism, a condemned heresy.

The second, no major issue… but remember, true respect includes gentle remonstration of those in heresy, schism, or public sin.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

So the truth comes out, OP.

Yes, indeed - I was hoping to get a little shock factor and righteous indignation at such blatant religious indifference.

You are publicly taking a radical stand against the USCCB. I do not believe this is wise, and shows your complete disrespect of the clergy by publicly magnifiying their alleged error.

I’m taking a stand against error - whether that come from my Jehova’s witness neighbor next door or a Bishop - it doesn’t matter - error is error.

How does exposing error show “complete disrespect” of clergy? According to you if your Priest says contraception is okay and someone corrects him that person is ‘completely disrespecting’ him? Come on now!

It is well known that you are an advocate of EENS

Indeed - and as a Catholic so should you be. I’m 100% for defined dogmas of the faith. To not be is to be separated from the Church.

So, Sirach, you worship the same deities as hindus? Do you respect the satanic bible by Anton LaVey? Do you respect the rituals of witch doctors, the worship of hindu idols? To respect the rituals, beliefs, and writings of error is to show admiration and love. I HATE the beliefs, practices and writings of false religions since God Himself HATES them. I LOVE the individuals who have been duped into believing in these falsehoods since God Himself LOVES them and wants everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I asked my seven year old if she thought anything was wrong with the prayer petition of the USCCB - she gave me a sour look and said - “Yeah, we don’t worship the same gods as other religions.” To the little children it has been revealed. She gets it. Why don’t you?

 

[Sirach2]

I do get it RC, but it must be understood as the Church herself understands and teaches EENS. Here is your understanding which is in opposition to that of the Church, notably in Lumen Gentium and Unitatis Redintegratio, both documents of Vatican II which must be upheld by the faithful. You lose little opportunity to expose innocent readers to your idealogy, such as this thread, in putting forth your position and creating scandal.

RosaryCrusader:

But one thing is clear the Church has never taught and never will that people can be saved in any religion other than the Catholic Church. This premise has to be acknowledged before any meaningful conversation can take place.

Barb quoted the CCC which embraces the full teaching of Vatican II, and she made no other comment. The truth stands for itself as she presented it, and as the Church teaches it. However, you took offense and suggested she was making an “implication.”

How does exposing error show “complete disrespect” of clergy?

The bishops understand the Council teachings, and presented that understanding in the suggested prayer. Your understanding, being in contradiction to the Church’s, is your personal, erroneous interpretation; so in all probability, nothing I say will influence or correct you, since it had no effect in the other threads. Therefore, it is probably useless for me to cite portions of those documents which substantiate the Bishops’ meaning of the prayer.

What is harmful, though, is the implication that the CCC and the USCCB are wrong, as you put it, “religious indifferentism at it’s finest” and inferences of sin for “violating the first commandment.”

 

[Lormar]

Yes, indeed - I was hoping to get a little shock factor and righteous indignation at such blatant religious indifference.

Here? :extrahappy:

 

[lizaanne]

If I said this would you think I violated the 1st commandment?

Not sure you would be violating the Commandment, but you would be in serious error in either case.

“My brothers and sisters of different religions - Christian and non Christian - we believe in the same God who created us and put us together on earth.”

This is wrong all cases. Our God is a Triune God. If someone does not believe their God fulfills this requirement then they are not worshiping the same God. Our God send His Son to earth to die for our sins. If they do not believe in a God who did this they they are not worshiping the same God. Our God also told us to eat His Body and drink His Blood. If they do not do this (grape juice and crackers don’t count) then they are not worshiping the same God.

“I respect a non-Christian’s beliefs, practices, and writings.”

How can you “respect” any belief that will lead someone AWAY from the fullness of Truth and possibly away from heaven? You can certainly respect the person, but to say that you respect their beliefs is a denial of the Truth and it’s ultimate culmination of leading souls to heaven.

Be very careful of fuzzy-wuzzy political correctness. It doesn’t do anyone any good in the long run. The one spouting the nonsense is misleading others, and the one believing it is misleading themselves.

Stick with supporting, believing, and spreading the Truth. Some will hate you for it — you won’t be the first one who had to endure such treatment.

~Liza

 

[Sirach2]

Lizaanne:

Stick with supporting, believing, and spreading the Truth. Some will hate you for it — you won’t be the first one who had to endure such treatment.

So you view the statement by the OP as “truth”? Have either of you consulted the USCCB to determine whether or not they misrepresented the “truth”? Or to understand how they meant what was presented, before asserting your claim that they are wrong? Or did you just read these words without full knowledge, and proceed to defame them publicly, based purely on your own interpretations?

I offer the sentiments of Pius XII in Mystici Corporis Christi, for they are mine as well, and the very reason I take offense at this:

1. That is why We are deeply pained when We hear that not a few of Our Brother Bishops are being attacked and persecuted not only in their own persons, but - what is more cruel and heartrending for them - in the faithful committed to their care, in those who share their apostolic labors,

Such an offence We consider as committed against Our own person and We repeat the noble words of Our Predecessor of immortal memory Gregory the Great: “Our honor is the honor of the Universal Church; Our honor is the united strength of Our Brethren; and We are truly honored when honor is given to each and every one.”