If I were the new Bishop of Saginaw, I would

[loyola_rambler]

MBS1:

Not allow a non-ordained lay person to give the homily - especially when the priest is sitting in the first row just listening. Happens quite often at our church. Now that’s not seen in the new GIRM - at least in the copy I have.
MBS1

We’ll have to meet for mass at the cathedral one Sunday. It’s mind-boggling what they do there. My personal favorite is the priest giving Cliff notes to the reading before it’s ever read. He also sits in the front row for every part of the mass that has him seated. No entrance processional, just him and the lectors walking up and sitting down. No crucifix. A big movie screen across the back of the altar. The altar takes up 50% of the church.

But hey, on the otherhand, the music really is great and the homilies are superb.

 

[Toni]

aimee:

I can only say :bigyikes:

I’m with Aimee and I live in MI not to far off, but thank God in the Diocese of Detroit. I just hope they do something about the unleavened bread issue, some of the students I have when they go up your way come back with the horrid stories of the bread being more bread like and salty etc. I have heard several comments from them and also the Priest’s that sit down with the congregation and a women gets up to do the sermon. Oh I do pray they find a good Bishop for your diocese.

 

[puzzleannie]

cease and desist from the move to canonize my predecessor
obey my Pope and travel to Rome for my ad limina visit
read the GIRM
send my seminary candidates to Columbus instead of Detroit
restore kneelers and the practice of kneeling during the Eucharistic prayer
discipline dissenting priests, deacons, school principals and DREs

 

[loyola_rambler]

puzzleannie:

cease and desist from the move to canonize my predecessor
obey my Pope and travel to Rome for my ad limina visit
read the GIRM
send my seminary candidates to Columbus instead of Detroit
restore kneelers and the practice of kneeling during the Eucharistic prayer
discipline dissenting priests, deacons, school principals and DREs

Wow…that’s so on the money…and you’re almost a thousand miles away. Has Untener’s reputation spread that far or do you have links to the diocese?

BTW, rumor is that our new bishop has been picked and may be coming soon. I’m half tempted to send him a transcript of this thread.

 

[puzzleannie]

loyola rambler:

Wow…that’s so on the money…and you’re almost a thousand miles away. Has Untener’s reputation spread that far or do you have links to the diocese?

BTW, rumor is that our new bishop has been picked and may be coming soon. I’m half tempted to send him a transcript of this thread.

grew up in Detroit, family in Royal Oak, Troy, West Branch

 

[MBS1]

Toni wrote -

I’m with Aimee and I live in MI not to far off, but thank God in the Diocese of Detroit. I just hope they do something about the unleavened bread issue, some of the students I have when they go up your way come back with the horrid stories of the bread being more bread like and salty etc. I have heard several comments from them and also the Priest’s that sit down with the congregation and a women gets up to do the sermon. Oh I do pray they find a good Bishop for your diocese

Our bread recipe (I’ve seen it) includes white and wheat flour, baking powder, salt, honey, and water. It does bake up like read bread. It does come as a surprise to those outside of the Saginaw Diocese. I usually make sure to tell my friends to not skip the wine. From what I can find out from several orthodox catholic sources, this recipe may not be valid at all (and yes, I tried to get an iquiry into it only to be told that is was ok with the Bishop (now deceased)). Thank you for your prayers for our new Bishop - we need them.
MBS1

 

[midlandchemic]

MBS, we both know that very little in our humble corner of Catholicism is “orthodox”. Do wish that new bishop would be announced.

BTW, sorry I missed Bible study last week.I swore that was one of our weeks off. My bad!

 

[midlandchemic]

Hooray! We finally have our new bishop…and he’s a proven entity. Welcome Bishop Carlson, long may you live happily and here’s to hoping you put the crucifixes back on our altars.

 

[hope_eternal]

Stay Loving, open, ecumenical to all as Bishop Untener was. Share, care, as he did. He has big shoes to fill, this new Bishop. As you know there is now a new Bishop. May our Lord give him the strenght he will need for this new era.

 

[hope_eternal]

I thought I had my say- but not so! I was in Saginaw diocese under Bp. Untener(14 years). I must respond in love of course to some of the things spoken of here. I grew up protestant. I grew up then came into the church just after Vatican 2. I had gone to the Mass with Latin Masses, etc. I was in the diocese of Detriot before moving into Saginaw diocese. I am again in the Detriot Diocese. The reason the changes were made was to be in line with post- Vatican 2. The Priest sit or sat out with the congregation to show his humanity, that he was human. The flags were taken out because the Roman Catholic Church is global!! When we visited Italy there were no local flags in their Roman churches. sometimes these things are hard-- but either the church is global or American. I was a Eucharistic Minister, Parish Council etc. We had a Pastoral Adminstrator we voted to get. She did our homilies. We were happy to have this Sister! We were small and rural. She paid a lot of attention to us. Bishop Untener opened his heart to everyone in that diocese. I embraced the Priest sitting out in the congregation, showing his humanity. That he did not think he was on a pedestal. Just my 2 cents.The Eucharist too, ( the contents of) were pleasing to our parish.

 

[Theodred]

2 arms and 2 legs, a nose that sometimes runs, etc… these things aren’t enough for you to figure out that that guy up there is a human being??

Please.

 

[Theodred]

Ever since I went to school with two seminarians from Saginaw and heard about the things Bishop Untener was doing up there, I’ve kept the people of your diocese in my prayers. Hopefully this change will be an opportunity for growth and an opportunity for people to rediscover their Catholic heritage and the beauty of Catholic liturgy and devotions.

 

[BayCityRickL]

Judging by the essay Bishop Carlson wrote on “Duties of a Bishop” I would say that he’s a much straighter arrow than the late Bishop Untener. You can get to the South Dakota diocese where Carlson is now, by doing a Google search on Bishop Robert Carlson. It’ll be there on the first or second page of hits.

I may even start going to church again, if he looks around and straightens the place up a bit, well, more than that, a few notches are really needed to make this place a “Catholic” diocese again.

“…I would … give glowing recommendations to all the over-the-top-liberal priests in the diocese who will be looking for employment elsewhere after Feb 27, 2005”

 

[BayCityRickL]

…require all the priests, nuns, lay ministers, and all pastoral administrators to show evidence of reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

…require all the above to submit a written loyalty oath to the Catechism and to the orthodoxy of the Church

…require all the ‘touchdown Jesus’s’ to be removed from the sanctuaries and have the crucifixes re-installed in very solemn ceremonies.

…resume episcopal confirmation ceremonies ASAP

…initiate re-staffing of all lay ministry positions to achieve a balance of male/female incumbancy in the same proportions of the Catholic population.

…initiate parish bible reading and discussion in all parishes.

…have all personnel of the diocesan office re-apply for their jobs.

…establish episcopal residency based on density of Catholics

…publicize my email address; set a timer to remind me to read and answer an email message every two hours; create FAQs site for convenience

… require all diocesan personnel to schedule audiences with me between 3 and 4 p.m. on Tuesdays of alternating months; schedule meetings with rank and file laity on regular daily basis so as to break the cycle of ‘inner circle biases’

…visit churches in each of the 11 counties of the diocese on a publicized schedule at least four times a year.

…re-establish ban on eating meat on Fridays

…have priests celebrate four masses on weekends, to offset the declining number of priests.

…resurrect a permanent diaconate program

…establish full disclosure for expenditure of CSA funds

…de-emphasize clustering

…emphasize vocations

…establish moratorium on priest retirements in deference to recruiting candidates for priesthood

…set a goal of doubling or tripling the number of seminary candidates in five years.

…recruit U.S. priests to make up for the declining number of priests here

…set aside a day of remembrance for victims of earthquake / tsunami in Indian Ocean region in near future

…get some rest and develop an agenda for my second day as Bishop.

 

[frommi]

BayCityRickL:

.

…resume episcopal confirmation ceremonies ASAP

…re-establish ban on eating meat on Fridays

…have priests celebrate four masses on weekends, to offset the declining number of priests.

…de-emphasize clustering

…emphasize vocations

…establish moratorium on priest retirements in deference to recruiting candidates for priesthood

…recruit U.S. priests to make up for the declining number of priests here

…get some rest and develop an agenda for my second day as Bishop.

Wow…there’s so many problems here…it’s hard to count…

For starters…Bishop Untener did do episcopal confirmations, he just chose to do them on a rolling basis because he felt confirmation belonged in the Easter season on Sundays when the parish could be present for them. If you are hoping to restart episcopal confirmations, it could be ten years before there is another one in Saginaw due to the young age of the confirmandi and the tie to first eucharist.

I don’t recall Bishop Untener EVER saying it was ok to eat meat on Fridays in Lent…the universal church dispensed with the obligation to not eat meat on Friday years ago. I suppose you could forgo your hamburger and go eat at Red Lobster…that certainly will help the poor.

Priests are not supposed to celebrate more than three masses on a weekend, that’s canon law. And frankly, name a parish that needs more than 3 masses on a weekend?

How exactly do you force a priest to “not retire”? Hold them at gunpoint in the sanctuary?

Why shouldn’t parishes cluster? It’s not just the number of priests that is declining, it’s the population of the entire diocese. Does it really make sense to have 3 directors of religious education working within 3 blocks of one another?

The idea that Ken Untener did not want priests is absurd. The idea that the diocese is a sad sack place that is riddled with heterodoxy is offensive. Bishop Ken Untener never called for the ordination of women as some have suggested. Yes, he elevated them to leadership roles in the church.

The problem people had with Ken Untener is that he understood all to well the office of the bishop and what that office entailed. He was the moderator of the word for the diocese of saginaw for 24 years. If he was doing it in an inappropriate way…why did Rome not discipline him? There is precedent for such a thing (as happened in Seattle several years back).

Just as someone like me who very much respected Ken Untener and what he met for the church has an obligation to respect the office and calling of ALL bishops, not just those I like. I think some on this board have the same obligation and are not living up to it.

 

[_veritas]

frommi:

Just as someone like me who very much respected Ken Untener and what he met for the church has an obligation to respect the office and calling of ALL bishops, not just those I like. I think some on this board have the same obligation and are not living up to it.

It’s right for us to respect the office, obey our bishop, and above all pray for them.

However, “admonishing the sinner” is also a corporeal work of mercy (something which always seems to get forgotten in favor of the more popular ones that make one “feel good.”), and calling on our bishops for failing to do the work of the Church is also appropriate.

We should never descend into ad hominem attacks on the person of the bishop himself, nor should we be detracting or slanderous.

The problems in the diocese of Saginaw are well, well known… For reasons unknown to anyone else, Rome did not act – UNTIL NOW.

If any of you in Saginaw were once using the “but Rome hasn’t done anything, so it must be fine” line – you can forget it now. Carlson was chosen by Rome for one reason, and one reason alone – to lead you and the rest of the faithful in the diocese to heaven.

And he will do so charitably and with grace, but absolute firmness. The likely thing will be that all of the dissenters will wander along with him, relieved that he has made no drastic changes, thinking him their friend, until they realize that he will only travel with them so far before he draws the line in the sand. Then, one by one, slowly but surely, as he raises up new priests and seminarians, and youth groups faithful to the Church, he will start to change things more forcefully. Hopefully the majority of the dissenters will be brought around before that happens, and will no longer be dissenters. The rest will just have to deal with it or move elsewhere (the same way that their orthodox friends and family had to go elsewhere during the long reign of dissent.)

God bless all of you in Saginaw – give Him thanks for your new bishop, and pray mightily for your clergy and for a revival in vocations!

+veritas+

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

frommi:

Wow…there’s so many problems here…it’s hard to count…

For starters…Bishop Untener
I don’t recall Bishop Untener
Ken Untener Bishop Ken Untener
The problem people had with Ken Untener
Ken Untener

I think we have put our finger on one problem.

Anna

 

[frommi]

+veritas+:

It’s right for us to respect the office, obey our bishop, and above all pray for them.

The problems in the diocese of Saginaw are well, well known… For reasons unknown to anyone else, Rome did not act – UNTIL NOW.

If any of you in Saginaw were once using the “but Rome hasn’t done anything, so it must be fine” line – you can forget it now. Carlson was chosen by Rome for one reason, and one reason alone – to lead you and the rest of the faithful in the diocese to heaven.

I’m sorry…are you suggesting that had Ken Untener lived to retirement at 75 that people in Saginaw would have been deined heaven?

It’s really quite sad that a man as redolent of Catholic faith as Bishop Untener is disparaged in such a way.

 

[_veritas]

frommi:

I’m sorry…are you suggesting that had Ken Untener lived to retirement at 75 that people in Saginaw would have been deined heaven?

It’s really quite sad that a man as redolent of Catholic faith as Bishop Untener is disparaged in such a way.

For heaven’s sake No such thing was insinuated – the purpose of ALL bishops is to lead their flock to heaven. No person will be “denied” heaven merely or solely because of the bishop placed as their shepherd. Of course, some bishops do a better job than others, and, furthermore, because of the very nature of the responsibility of a bishop, the care and salvation of each person in his diocese is very much his concern.

While no person would ever be straight out denied heaven because of a bishop, the possibility certainly exists that a bishop who obstructs the work of the Spirit may also obstruct the path of some souls to heaven. Why else would Jesus warn that “it would be better for them to have a millstone around their neck than to lead one of my little ones astray”?

Before you start, I make no judgment on the previous Bishop of Saginaw (Too late, I’m sure you are already applying my comment about millstones to your Bishop even though I intended no direct corellation, only a reminder that there are indeed serious responsibilities associated with the vocation of bishop that cannot be denied by anyone).

I have no personal experience with Bishop Untener, the only experience I have is of the objective realities going on in his diocese under his care. How much of that was really his fault is questionable, and I do not blame him personally for any of it.

However – everyone agrees that your new bishop is decidedly different from your old bishop, and was selected by Rome for a reason, as all selections by Rome are done.

That should be all the answer you need.

+veritas+

 

[frommi]

+veritas+:

I have no personal experience with Bishop Untener, the only experience I have is of the objective realities going on in his diocese under his care. How much of that was really his fault is questionable, and I do not blame him personally for any of it.

However – everyone agrees that your new bishop is decidedly different from your old bishop, and was selected by Rome for a reason, as all selections by Rome are done.

That should be all the answer you need.

+veritas+

It’s difficult to ascertain how different one bishop is from another…at least in my experience of living/working in three different diocese now…

But I would be curious as to what your outsider’s perspective is on the “problems” of Saginaw?