"If it FEELS good, then it must be right." -Mormons

[ADouglass]

No so fast here.

In regards to how Luke 24:32 is to be interpreted. I don’t see how that verse, even when taken out of context means that any time our hearts are on fire, or are burning, then this means something is true. Can you explain other scripture to me that might support your viewpoint? One way that Luke 24:32 can be interpreted (taken out of context) is that the men whose hearts were burning where feeling an intense passion in the deepest part of their souls about what was being said. Aren’t we judged based on the deepest desire of our soul? Can’t a person have a heart on fire for the atheist position?

 

[ADouglass]

A, how do you recognize when the Holy Spirit is present? Is it possible to recognize the presence of the Spirit? How does God communicate to us or answer prayers? Does he answer prayers in specific ways and never in others? How do we disdinguish between the 'real thing" and when it is a demon making us think it is God?

What should we understand about the resurrected Lord talking with two of his disciples on the way to Emmaus; as he explained the scriptures to them their hearts burned within them? It would seem like God does touch our hearts and that we feel them. Should we ignore all feelings or are there only specific feelings we should acknowledge and ignroe all others?

What we are not talking about is emotions as in liking our dog, enjoying a pizza, or seeing a good movie. These things have nothing to do with the feelings being discussed.

Here is the gist of what I want everyone to realize. Missionaries do in fact ask the potential convert to ignore reason and trust in the “feelings of the Spirit”. One thing I have found about the Holy Spirit is that it will never go against reason. So, how do I know when the Holy Spirit has influenced me? Logic itself is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Reason was given to us by God when He created us. Supernatural occurences do occur: not simply in the form of “a burning in my bosom”, but in ways that either add evidence to, or provide evidence against ones paradigm. Does it lead one to separation from God? Why would God ask someone to ignore evidence and reason?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thank you for your response and clarification; Can you please give an example of how this is witnessed out from your LDS faith? Can you explain how the Spirit gives witness to your faith?

mtolympus;7607877] It would be more acurate to say Latter-day Saints believe that understanding of spiritual things come by faith through a witness of the Spirit.

 

[SteveVH]

Thank you for your response and clarification; Can you please give an example of how this is witnessed out from your LDS faith? Can you explain how the Spirit gives witness to your faith?

You took the words right out of my mouth. As a Catholic I can easily and truthfully say that I “believe that understanding of spiritual things come by faith through a witness of the Spirit.”

The question is how do you know? As a Catholic I would measure my understanding of spirtual things agains the teachings of my Church, the Saints, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition which I know to be true through both faith and reason. It is the Holy Spirit who prompts us to even pray (even prays for us). We always have to remember though, that there is also someone else who whispers in our ear. He whispers things that make sense, that seem good at first. He is very sly. He throws in just enough error to lead us away, little by little. No, we need more than a feeling in our heart, no matter how sincere and real, if we are to stay on the right path. We need a Church, inhabited by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. We need the Eucharist, the true presence of Christ in our lives.

 

[JeanMichel]

How do we know the we are guided by the Holy Spirit? Well to begin with you have a inner spirit all of your own. You know deep down inside what is right and what is wrong.

Some choose to ignore it, usually when you have the urge to sin, or are in sin at the moment.

IF you listen, really listen to your conscience it will lead you, If you find you do not have one, you are in big trouble. You would not be one of God.

God speaks to your through your conscience, he leads you, he guides you, and he helps you live day to day. The more time you spend with him. the more free and at peace your conscience seems to be. The more you run from him, ignore his truth the more restless your conscience seems to be.

Bottom line, you can lie to me, I to you, I can even fool you, you can do the same to me, Uh but to ourself, it can’t be done. Oh we can try, but deep deep down, we know, and God knows we know. Because if we are one of his, he is leading us.

Well said and I agree with you, but I think there is more to the conversation.

 

[JeanMichel]

Here is the gist of what I want everyone to realize. Missionaries do in fact ask the potential convert to ignore reason and trust in the “feelings of the Spirit”. One thing I have found about the Holy Spirit is that it will never go against reason. So, how do I know when the Holy Spirit has influenced me? Logic itself is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Reason was given to us by God when He created us. Supernatural occurences do occur: not simply in the form of “a burning in my bosom”, but in ways that either add evidence to, or provide evidence against ones paradigm. Does it lead one to separation from God? Why would God ask someone to ignore evidence and reason?

You may want to read John Paul II work entitled “Fides et Ratio”. It will enlighten your approach to the topic and state clearly when faith is enough when reason fails.

 

[mtolympus]

Thank you for your response and clarification; Can you please give an example of how this is witnessed out from your LDS faith? Can you explain how the Spirit gives witness to your faith?

Latter-day Saints believe that there was a spiritual creation and then a physical creation which followed the same pattern. In our current mortal journey we are spiritual beings lost in a physical world. In the physical world we see with our eyes. But the Apostle Paul tells us that the way we see in our spiritual world is through faith:

“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight).” (2 Cor. 5:6-7)

In the physical world we see through our eyes by the light of the sun or other forms of light energy. In the spiritual world we see through faith by the light of Christ:

“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” (John 8:12)

In the physical world we discover truth by observing with our physical senses or though seeking physical evidence. However, we are told in Hebrews 11:1 that when seeking (spiritual) truth, that “faith… is the evidence”. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Heb11:1)

I recently watched a show on television about the conflict between a mother and her son. The mother sought for the answers to life’s questions through her faith and her son sought for these same answers through Science. I recognized that their conflict was based on a false premise. Both science and faith are ways of finding truth. Science uses physical tools and physical experiments that help us understand the physical world. Faith starts at the other end of the spectrum and teaches us about our spiritual world. Someday, when all truth is known, and the two ends of the spectrum come together, there will be no conflicts. Never-the-less, Paul teaches us the folly of trying to understand our spiritual world by using the tools of the physical world when he writes:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:14)

 

[ADouglass]

You may want to read John Paul II work entitled “Fides et Ratio”. It will enlighten your approach to the topic and state clearly when faith is enough when reason fails.

Thanks. I wish I had been more specific in my last post, and in being so general I have stated something that can easily be disproved. I just don’t see how it is right when I am asked to deny the law of non-contradiction and instead rely on faith. Perhaps it is okay to put aside one’s notion that two things which one thinks are true can’t both be true when the truth of one isn’t certain. But I will never deny the actual law of non-contradiction.

Example: Moroni 8:18 18 “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.” But then if you are mormon, you must also believe there was a time when God was a man, and that there was a God before him. These can’t both be true. Also, for a clarification:

Moses 6:67
And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.

 

[ADouglass]

In reference to my last post: here are the specifics about God once being a man: lds-mormon.com/gbh.shtml

 

[JeanMichel]

Thanks. I wish I had been more specific in my last post, and in being so general I have stated something that can easily be disproved. I just don’t see how it is right when I am asked to deny the law of non-contradiction and instead rely on faith. Perhaps it is okay to put aside one’s notion that two things which one thinks are true can’t both be true when the truth of one isn’t certain. But I will never deny the actual law of non-contradiction.

Example: Moroni 8:18 18 “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.” But then if you are mormon, you must also believe there was a time when God was a man, and that there was a God before him. These can’t both be true. Also, for a clarification:

Moses 6:67
And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.

Douglass, Mormonism can be a conundrum. I have studied it for many years because I have so many Mormon friends and I have seen so many convert to their church. They have doctrine and then they seem to have the musings of their leaders. Nothing becomes doctrine of their church if it is not added to their canon. If you do not find in their canon it is not their doctrine.

However, there is almost a “lore” of their members. Joseph Smith, in his King Follett discourse, which is not doctrine, supported this idea of God at one time being a man like just like Jesus Christ. They base this belief also on Jesus’ statement that he could do nothing that he had not seen the Father do. This is a problematic verse for many of us. When did Jesus only observe what the Father had done and under what circumstances. Though I find it problematic, I also am not concerned with it.

John Paul II states wonderfully the role of Faith when reason fails. Faith is that which we never abandon even when Reason would tell us to let go. Faith is unshakable in the face of the knowledge of man. Our minds are finite, but our faith is infinite when it is placed in God. This is an encyclical that all should read.

 

[rinnie]

When it comes to faith I agree we must have faith and reason, but also history. If you look back from the beginning of time, God always gave us signs to look for.

In the O.T the Jews knew exactly how their Savior was to come. But for some reason they missed it. Jesus fulfilled every single thing in the O.T which proves he was God.

But we saw this, we accepted this teaching. And many Jews are comming to see this now also.

But the point I am trying to make is the whole N.T is Jesus buiding his Church here on earth. He said he and the Church are one. We know he is alive and his living presence is in the CC.

How we know this is simply by History, and the N.T. Jesus set it up for the Apostles to run his Church by his presence of the Holy Spirit working through them. He said when THEY speak it will be with MY VOICE.

The N.T states there will be no other to come except Christ himself in the same Body, and the same way he went up to heaven in the sky, he will return. Until then he left us his Mystical Body which is himself in the Church. He is the bread of eternal life in the Eucharist, he is the voice that teaches us today by his Appointed Apostles of today.

If there were to be another he would have told us when he was here with us in his human body. But he did not. He actually warned us to be aware of others who will claim to come from him. He said Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME, Jesus is the Church leading us by the power of the Holy Spirit. The True Spirit, the Spirit of truth. The bible itself tells us the CHURCH is the PILAR of ALL TRUTH.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Great post SteveVH; The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian faith (CCC 1324).

It is our conscience and our will united to Christ True presence that is formed to the mind of Christ by the Word God which is the light for our path (CCC 1785).

“Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking” (St. Irenaeus d.202 a.d).

1Corinthians 1:14
Now the natural person 8 does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually.
15
The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment 9 by anyone.
16

For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I have come across teachings of the body, soul, spirit, consience, Will and faith of a person from scripture. I am unaware of any “Christian biblical writings and teachings” dealing from a “feeling”?

One of the main fiery weapons of the enemy comes from the influence of our feelings or emotions, so as to form our conscience from deceptions that lead us away from the mind of Christ.

Which many times comes in a deceptive form of a “light”, for it is the Word of God = made flesh which guides us to the path of light, not “a light” to lead you away with or from your “feelings”?

Psalm 109:105
**Your word **is a lamp for my feet, a light for my path.

Peace be with you

You took the words right out of my mouth. As a Catholic I can easily and truthfully say that I “believe that understanding of spiritual things come by faith through a witness of the Spirit.”

The question is how do you know? As a Catholic I would measure my understanding of spirtual things agains the teachings of my Church, the Saints, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition which I know to be true through both faith and reason. It is the Holy Spirit who prompts us to even pray (even prays for us). We always have to remember though, that there is also someone else who whispers in our ear. He whispers things that make sense, that seem good at first. He is very sly. He throws in just enough error to lead us away, little by little. No, we need more than a feeling in our heart, no matter how sincere and real, if we are to stay on the right path. We need a Church, inhabited by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit. We need the Eucharist, the true presence of Christ in our lives.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thank you for that commentary it was very informative, except for the part of you quote “In our current mortal journey we are spiritual beings lost in a physical world”, is very debatable.

Forgive me if I was not clear in my question, about an LDS giving witness to his/her faith publicly?

I can speak from experience here, when an LDS expressed to me personally, who presented to me, an LDS exercise to read the scripture from the bible and correlate my feelings from the scripture reading;

My revised question is: How do you give witness of your LDS faith, by applying this exercise based from “feelings” and how does this “feeling” exercise relate to the Spirit? or is this not an official exercise presented by LDS members giving witness to their LDS faith?

Peace be with you

mtolympus;7609432]Latter-day Saints believe that there was a spiritual creation and then a physical creation which followed the same pattern. In our current mortal journey we are spiritual beings lost in a physical world. In the physical world we see with our eyes. But the Apostle Paul tells us that the way we see in our spiritual world is through faith:

 

[ADouglass]

Douglass, Mormonism can be a conundrum. I have studied it for many years because I have so many Mormon friends and I have seen so many convert to their church. They have doctrine and then they seem to have the musings of their leaders. Nothing becomes doctrine of their church if it is not added to their canon. If you do not find in their canon it is not their doctrine.

However, there is almost a “lore” of their members. Joseph Smith, in his King Follett discourse, which is not doctrine, supported this idea of God at one time being a man like just like Jesus Christ. They base this belief also on Jesus’ statement that he could do nothing that he had not seen the Father do. This is a problematic verse for many of us. When did Jesus only observe what the Father had done and under what circumstances. Though I find it problematic, I also am not concerned with it.

John Paul II states wonderfully the role of Faith when reason fails. Faith is that which we never abandon even when Reason would tell us to let go. Faith is unshakable in the face of the knowledge of man. Our minds are finite, but our faith is infinite when it is placed in God. This is an encyclical that all should read.

I’m suprised you don’t know that what gets said at general conference becomes part of the LDS canon, as also what gets put into the Ensign is part of the LDS canon. The idea that “As man is God once was, and as God is man may become” has been repeated over and over by all those in authority in the LDS church, be it at conference or in the Ensign, or in official LDS teaching manuals. For proof that this is the case see this: “In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, the Liahona or Ensign magazine, and instructions to local priesthood leaders.” source: lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-10-scriptures?lang=eng Also, see this: i4m.com/think/leaders/god_was_man.htm

 

[JeanMichel]

I’m suprised you don’t know that what gets said at general conference becomes part of the LDS canon, as also what gets put into the Ensign is part of the LDS canon. The idea that “As man is God once was, and as God is man may become” has been repeated over and over by all those in authority in the LDS church, be it at conference or in the Ensign, or in official LDS teaching manuals. For proof that this is the case see this: “In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, the Liahona or Ensign magazine, and instructions to local priesthood leaders.” source: lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-10-scriptures?lang=eng Also, see this: i4m.com/think/leaders/god_was_man.htm

No, that is not correct; there is a qualifier. That which is said at general conference that is inspired by the Holy Spirit is the same as scripture. However, being viewed as scripture, or the word of God, is not the equivalent of being added to the canon. The canon has been added to, but it happens infrequently.

You will not find in canon the teaching of God being man like Jesus Christ. That is always been a question: is the God they are speaking of God the Son or God the Father? If it is God the Son, then we are already aware that God became man and it is not a new teaching.

 

[ADouglass]

No, that is not correct; there is a qualifier. That which is said at general conference that is inspired by the Holy Spirit is the same as scripture. However, being viewed as scripture, or the word of God, is not the equivalent of being added to the canon. The canon has been added to, but it happens infrequently.

You will not find in canon the teaching of God being man like Jesus Christ. That is always been a question: is the God they are speaking of God the Son or God the Father? If it is God the Son, then we are already aware that God became man and it is not a new teaching.

Dude, I was LDS until I went to college. Most of my friends are LDS. You obviously haven’t read much into this because it is obvious that who is being referred to is God the Father. Notice this:

“This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).”

The above quote is from an official LDS manual (on the official LDS website lds.org) titled “Gospel Principles,” from chapter 47.

What does it take for something to become canonized (considered scripture)? The main concern is that it must have been inspired by the Holy Ghost. Obviously, I don’t think the Holy Ghost inspired any of the so-called LDS prophets to reveal this. So, this leads me to investigate whether or not practicing mormons consider it inspired. They do. If they didn’t, then they obviously haven’t looked into it because every official statement by the LDS church supports this view. Answer me this: if it isn’t to be accepted as doctrine, why does the Gospel Principles manual clearly state that God the Father used to be a man like us? If it was just “musings,” why is it explicitly stated in a manual called Gospel Principles?

 

[ADouglass]

Also, in case your too lazy to look up chapter 47 in the Gospel Principles book. Here is what directly preceeded my last quote from said book:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel–you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 348).”

Also, I just realized the sense in which you are using the term “canon.” Obviously, you think that for something to become canonized, it must be added to the Doctrine and Convenants or included in the quad (Bible, Book of Mormon, DandC, Pearl of Great Price). Any competent mormon will tell you that this isn’t the case, as any words of their prophets are considered scripture the second they are spoken (as long as it is inspired, which it isn’t, so we have to go by what they consider to be inspired–and where do we look for that? whenever their church prints an official manual, it is assumed that they prayed about what is in it, to find out whether or not it was inspired, having printed it, we know that they considered it inspired). Also, in the introduction of Gospel Principles it states “Never speculate about Church doctrine.” Why would a book that says never to speculate about church doctrine present a speculation about church doctrine?

You remind me of my friend who thinks he can get a good perspective on a particular relilgion by talking to any old member of it. To find the truth, you must go to original sources.

 

[KathleenGee]

ADDouglas,

Appreciate your comments…about getting to sources…I went to an LDS bookstore and that is when my eyes were opened…

We all agree Mormons are very nice people. But it is the belief system, how it is put together, and how it develops is something else. A priest told me he thinks that looking at Christianity in itself as ‘being nice’–an American emphasis – is akin to heresy in itself. We are looking at people emotionally. And people can be very fooled by nice people.

 

[Stephen168]

But I will never deny the actual law of non-contradiction.

I would think the the principle of non-contradiction would apply to the teaching that the Mormon Church has a ‘Prophet’ with ‘continuing revelation.’ They seem to want it both ways at time.

 

[ADouglass]

After thinking more about what has been taught about God the Father in official LDS manuals, I’ve decided that it is rather pointless to talk about. In one version of Gospel Principles it is stated that intelligence can be neither created nor destroyed, and that God gathered and formed us from a sphere where we were already existing. Sigh… And they did take that out of their new version of Gospel Principles. I would say that was a wise decision because of the paradox that it presents, and considering he fact that speculation about doctrine is forbidden. In fact, I think my acceptance that I was without beginning or end directly led to my delusions of grandeur that led to my hospitalization in a psych ward.