"If it FEELS good, then it must be right." -Mormons

[ParkerD]

Parker,

I find many, many more posters here having insight and credibility greater than I.

What I do note is that our apostasy thread is still being accessed. I assume it is Mormon missionaries or those wanting to find out how we look at Mormonism.

Mormonism studies Catholicism very closely…

How would the Mormon religion look today as a church if the Catholic Church were not here??

Kathleen Gee,

Don’t you think it is possible that you are making a wrong assumption about who may still be looking up the apostasy thread? They could be finding it using a Google search (which places this website high on the list due to how a Google search works) or it could be Catholics just wanting to understand the whole idea of a “great apostasy”. I assure you that Mormon missionaries are not looking at this website, at all.

My experience is that the only Mormons who “study” the Catholic religion are those who are taking comparative religion classes in college. Others may certainly read about it from what they find in a newspaper, and some articles are favorable which is going to be viewed as a good thing. The LDS are all for good things happening in the world.

As to your last question, it would “look” exactly the same as it now “looks”.

 

[mtolympus]

So tell me, what fears do opponents of truth raise?

This is what Jesus told us when seeking the Kingdom of God: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” (Matt. 7:7-8)
If someone says that an answer to our prayer to our Father in Heaven may come from Satan this is an example of fear. Jesus clearly says this is not so in the above scripture. (Also see James 1:5-6) We need to have faith that if we pray to God in search for truth that God will answer our prayers. We need to choose faith over fear.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is what Jesus told us when seeking the Kingdom of God: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” (Matt. 7:7-8)
If someone says that an answer to our prayer to our Father in Heaven may come from Satan this is an example of fear. Jesus clearly says this is not so in the above scripture. (Also see James 1:5-6) We need to have faith that if we pray to God in search for truth that God will answer our prayers. We need to choose faith over fear.

Jesus is teaching us that God hears our prayers.

The Mormon message is of Christ failed, and needing a do-over to get it right. I think it could be understood that there is not fear in hearing this, but reason, telling any person who trusts God that Mormons are proposing at best, the irrational.

There is no reason to ask God about an irrational proposition. You may as well tell me that I don’t need to breath in order to live, and should pray about this, expecting to receive an answer in the affirmative (meaning it feels really good) at which point I hold my breath to the end.

Jesus never taught us to be fools. There is no need to pray about foolish things.

 

[campeador]

Mormons do not believe that angels are a different creature or creation from humanity. For Mormons, angels can be three types of beings: a) human spirits that have not received a body yet, b) humans that have passed on but are not resurrected, and c) resurrected beings.

I looked up a link trying to find support for this: lds.org/scriptures/tg/angels-…ering?lang=eng. I am not sure these quotes support all of them.

If they believed that angels were a different type of being your criticism is well placed. However, in this context Mormons will just ignore your comment I think. For them, Moroni could easily be an angel sent on God’s errand.

They do seem to believe in arch-angels, but only so far as they being important beings in mortality. I don’t think they have any belief in different ranks of angels.

Irrelevant. Mtolympus would like us to believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet using the LDS understanding.

By that logic, anyone can prove anything.

Again, according to reason Joseph Smith and Moroni have failed.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well, Parker, I do hope that people follow reason in these threads, think and not just find a feeling about what they are reading.

Mormonism has a very serious questionable construct when it invalidates Christianity, believing in a self-proclaimed prophet and drawing from sources outside JudeoChristian history. To discern this it takes more than just feeling.

There are countless Christians who know and follow the Good Shepherd, who hold mainline and traditional Christian beliefs and who do not follow the tenants of Mormonism.

Again, the onus is on Mormonism for invalidating Christianity and using sources and references outside of it, very late in coming…

 

[ParkerD]

Well, Parker, I do hope that people follow reason in these threads, think and not just find a feeling about what they are reading.

Mormonism … believing in a self-proclaimed prophet and drawing from sources outside JudeoChristian history. To discern this it takes more than just feeling.

There are countless “Christians” who know and follow the Good Shepherd, who hold mainline and traditional “Christian” beliefs and who do not follow the tenants of Mormonism.

Again, the onus is on Mormonism for invalidating “Christianity” and using sources and references outside of it, very late in coming…

Kathleen,

Indeed there are good people who live Christian lives who “know and follow the Good Shepherd.”

As to “self-proclaimed prophets”, I suppose that you realize that Abraham could be looked at as a “self-proclaimed prophet,” as could Moses, as could John the Baptist, as could young Samuel, and as could Noah. To reject prophetic leadership because a prophet says he has been called of God to give a message to the world, is merely to say “God doesn’t speak through prophets”. I just don’t think that is an approach that is supported if one believes in the Bible.

As to your last sentence, Mormonism has no “onus”, and people lose only that which they choose to “lose” by thinking their beliefs “invalidated” if they think the message of Mormonism does not validate and reiterate the precise, joyful teachings of Jesus, the Son of the living God. Mormonism validates those teachings in every respect. Included within those teachings is the knowledge that there is a source of peace and heaven-sent knowledge which are provided by the Spirit of truth, the Comforter promised by the Savior.

One who disassociates their heart from their head (thus potentially having a “heart of stone” just as the Old Testament prophets warned against) is not going to be in a position to be led by the Good Shepherd or the Comforter. Following their divine leadership requires a soft heart, and a willing mind–which are qualities of meekness and humility, straight from the heart of the person.

 

[Stephen168]

This is what Jesus told us when seeking the Kingdom of God: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” (Matt. 7:7-8)
If someone says that an answer to our prayer to our Father in Heaven may come from Satan this is an example of fear. Jesus clearly says this is not so in the above scripture. (Also see James 1:5-6) We need to have faith that if we pray to God in search for truth that God will answer our prayers. We need to choose faith over fear.

Almost all my prayers are of thanksgiving, so I don’t expect answers. Could you give me an example of a prayer, to God, asking for something that the people would be afraid of the answer or think the answer would come from Satan? And then if you could help me tie that in with how that person would be an opponent of truth.

 

[campeador]

A study of the Bible shows that angels that appear on earth are usually described simply as men that appear unusually white or bright. When Cornelius described to Peter the “angel of God” that had appeared to him, he said, “a man stood before me in bright clothing” (Acts 10:3, 30); and when two angels appeared to the women at the sepulchre, it was written, “two men stood by them in shining garments.” (Luke 24:4; also see John 20:12)
The Bible consistently describes angels as men, not as an altered state but as their normal spiritual form. When an angel appeared to John, he fell at his feet to worship him, but the angel forbade him, saying, “I am thy fellowservant, and of your brethren that have the testimony of Jesus.” (Rev. 19:10)
The Old Testament prophets Moses and Elias appeared to Peter, James, and John at the mount of transfiguration. They were angels sent to minister to these apostles. (Matt. 17:3).
These incidents recorded in the Bible are very similar to the appearance of Moroni to Joseph Smith in 1827.

Again Mtolympus, you are using faulty reasoning. Claiming similarities between Bible passages and LDS beliefs does not prove it to be the truth, nor should it persuade us to change our historical and traditional understanding of it.

People make similar claims about the Bible all the time.
bibleufo.com/subjects.htm

 

[ADouglass]

This is what Jesus told us when seeking the Kingdom of God: “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?” (Matt. 7:7-8)
If someone says that an answer to our prayer to our Father in Heaven may come from Satan this is an example of fear. Jesus clearly says this is not so in the above scripture. (Also see James 1:5-6) We need to have faith that if we pray to God in search for truth that God will answer our prayers. We need to choose faith over fear.

So, what happens when we ask a prayer without weighing out what it means first? Have you asked God whether or not you should trust that a burning in your bosom means something is true? Did you get a burning in your bosom for an answer to such a prayer? Did a thought come to mind? What happens when the thought says: no, the burning in your bosom doesn’t mean somethng is true, but at the same time you get a burning in your bosom? But wait, there is another though: it says, yes, trust your feeling, it means something is true. Why then would you continue believing in the feeling?

To see a case where after praying to God a person get’s contradictory messages, see the latest version of Joseph Smith’s first vocal prayer. Sadly, it seems Joseph assumes the two personages who appeared to him were God the Father and Jesus Christ. Why doesn’t he refer to them as God the Father and Jesus Christ in the description of his vision in History of the Church? You’d think God would make that quite evident to him. But no, he refers to them as “two personages.”

Is everyone here aware of the fallacy of the argument by analogy? It’s where you draw conclusions from an analogy that both instances of example don’t support, but nonetheless both examples share something in common. Which is like saying: we have this in common, therefore, these other things we don’t share, we in fact share.

 

[ADouglass]

Kathleen Gee,

You might well want to put your mind to rest about whether Mormons are reading your posts. One or two, perhaps, but offhand I think you can rest assured that only one or two would be doing so.

lol

Maybe I need to go post a link to this thread on that lds forum thread that I posted. Or, someone could do it for me…

 

[ADouglass]

I just noticed my link to the lds.net thread about trusting feelings has been deleted. I’m going to post it again, since I didn’t get any warning from a moderator about it. If it was the moderator, sorry, just let me know and I won’t do it again. I couldn’t find any rules against posting a link to another forum. If it was the LDS thought control: I’ll just keep posting it if you keep deleting it as long as I’m alive.

lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/30519-warning-new-false-doctrine-going-around.html

 

[JeanMichel]

I cannot find any such statement by John Paul II in Fides et Ratio. He takes some time condemning fideism, which is the opposite of what you are suggesting.

He said this will never happen.

Knowledge (truth) comes from faith and reason. They both come from God therefore they cannot contradict each other. Twice he quoted the First Vatican Council, “There are two orders of Knowledge, distinct not only in their point of departure, but also in their object.” The objects of faith are the mysteries of God while the object of natural reason is most everything else. To look for the mysteries of God in a science lab is irrational. To look for answers to the physical world by faith is just as irrational.

When a Mormon Missionary asks me to pray about the truth of the Book of Mormon, that is being asking to ignore natural reason, and determine if it is a work of non-fiction by faith (trust my ‘feelings”).

I assume then your answer is “no, I have not read it”. That is okay, but use this as an invitation to read the entire encyclical. It is a wonderful treatise on Faith and Reason. They are eternal companions, but often appear at odds with each other in this life. Thus we have many scientists that are atheists. In those moments when reason conflicts with faith, we must all cleave unto faith until such times as science raises itself to a greater understanding and truth is revealed. Faith is knowledge of truth not seen or known by man.

If you think that Reason alone should be used to destroy faith, then you set yourself a dangerous path. Man has a very finite knowledge of the universe and God. If Reason becomes the sword we wield at all times to understand God, at some point Reason fails and faith is abandoned. May this never be the case for any of us. May our faith always remain strengthened in our personal knowledge of Jesus Christ, God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Seat of Wisdom found in our mother, Mary.

 

[ADouglass]

I assume then your answer is “no, I have not read it”. That is okay, but use this as an invitation to read the entire encyclical. It is a wonderful treatise on Faith and Reason. They are eternal companions, but often appear at odds with each other in this life. Thus we have many scientists that are atheists. In those moments when reason conflicts with faith, we must all cleave unto faith until such times as science raises itself to a greater understanding and truth is revealed. Faith is knowledge of truth not seen or known by man.

If you think that Reason alone should be used to destroy faith, then you set yourself a dangerous path. Man has a very finite knowledge of the universe and God. If Reason becomes the sword we wield at all times to understand God, at some point Reason fails and faith is abandoned. May this never be the case for any of us. May our faith always remain strengthened in our personal knowledge of Jesus Christ, God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Seat of Wisdom found in our mother, Mary.

Reason is the only sword we wield to understand God. Faith doesn’t grant understanding. I like how you used a captial R for when you wrote “at some point Reason fails.” This shows to me that you don’t have faith in properly used reason, for anyone can say that reason with a lowercase r can faith, but to say it with a capital? That is down right mad. Maybe you should become a mormon, they would welcome you with open arms.

 

[ADouglass]

I assume then your answer is “no, I have not read it”. That is okay, but use this as an invitation to read the entire encyclical. It is a wonderful treatise on Faith and Reason. They are eternal companions, but often appear at odds with each other in this life. Thus we have many scientists that are atheists. In those moments when reason conflicts with faith, we must all cleave unto faith until such times as science raises itself to a greater understanding and truth is revealed. Faith is knowledge of truth not seen or known by man.

If you think that Reason alone should be used to destroy faith, then you set yourself a dangerous path. Man has a very finite knowledge of the universe and God. If Reason becomes the sword we wield at all times to understand God, at some point Reason fails and faith is abandoned. May this never be the case for any of us. May our faith always remain strengthened in our personal knowledge of Jesus Christ, God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Seat of Wisdom found in our mother, Mary.

Also, I assume there is something that you think Reason will fail in regards to. Please show an example and I will refute it.

 

[rinnie]

I assume then your answer is “no, I have not read it”. That is okay, but use this as an invitation to read the entire encyclical. It is a wonderful treatise on Faith and Reason. They are eternal companions, but often appear at odds with each other in this life. Thus we have many scientists that are atheists. In those moments when reason conflicts with faith, we must all cleave unto faith until such times as science raises itself to a greater understanding and truth is revealed. Faith is knowledge of truth not seen or known by man.

If you think that Reason alone should be used to destroy faith, then you set yourself a dangerous path. Man has a very finite knowledge of the universe and God. If Reason becomes the sword we wield at all times to understand God, at some point Reason fails and faith is abandoned. May this never be the case for any of us. May our faith always remain strengthened in our personal knowledge of Jesus Christ, God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Seat of Wisdom found in our mother, Mary.

Hi JeanMichel. Reason alone should never be able to destroy faith, I agree with you on that.

But God also gave us Reason and History. Even People who do not believe in God accept that. Reason is our ability to accept something, and history is proof that it exists.

I mean lets face it, where would this world be without reason, or History?

That is why God uses both for us to be led to the truth. In the O.T. it shows us how Adam and Eve sinned and therefore we were given death. But the O.T. also continues to show us by History that we can expect a Savior to free us from all sin.

Jesus Christ was who fulfilled that O.T. Now the N.T. continued to show us what to expect next. Why was there no foretelling of Joseph Smith then? Why did the N.T. say that there would be no other Prophet comming, except Christ himself? Why would Jesus forget to tell us to look for a new Man?

Why would Jesus tell us to NOT look for anyone else? Because he did indeed warn us about that. It is predicted in the bible, to stay away from false teachers who will try to sway us from the Early Teaching’s of the Church. Why does the gospel say the Church is the Pilar of all truth and not Joseph Smith. I believe I asked this question before and never got a response. If I did I apologize and missed it. But could you address this question. Thanks JM.

 

[rinnie]

Irrelevant. Mtolympus would like us to believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet using the LDS understanding.

By that logic, anyone can prove anything.

Again, according to reason Joseph Smith and Moroni have failed.

And History. When we were told that the Son of God would come he was to die on the cross and then be raised again on the third day to take away our sins and give us eternal life. He did that, It happened, We have the N.T full of thousands who can testify to this.

But Joseph Smith predicted many things that just have not happened. Is that a true Prophet, if so then how could a true Prophet of God get or wrong, or lie. that is not possible. Does not a true prophet speak the word of God. John the Baptism did.

All of the Prophets in the past have never had it easy I agree, but they never got the word of God wrong. What is the answer to the failure of JS? that God lied. or JS heard it wrong? OR could History, and Reason, and faith be clear and true, and the word of God be true, to not look for anymore prophets from God because there will be none. That Jesus Christ said it all, did it all, and will be the one to come back for all until the end of time.

And if you want to find him he as he told Saul. Why are you persecuting ME, THe CHURCH. As the word of God tells us, Jesus and his Church are one. Jesus is united to the Church as a bride to the bridegroom. He never mentioned Joseph Smith or another prophet.

Jesus told us that to find the word of God look to the teaching’s of the Apostles, they will have the truth. Jesus told us when they hear you they hear me, I will be sending the ADVOCATE the HOLY SPRIIT to guide you into all truth. When you speak it will be with my VOICE you will hear. Why would Jesus promise us the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truth and then turn around and send us another Prophet to teach us another truth.

THat would mean the Holy Spirit, the Advocate has failed would it not? Or as predicted in the N.T. the Holy Spirit will never fail and will be with us until the end of age the way Jesus promised us.

Now what are we to do? Are we to continue to listen to the word of God and stick with the teaching’s of the Early Fathers of the Church, or do the opposite of what Jesus warned us to do and follow false teachings. Did Jesus not warn us they would appear? Did Jesus not say they would try to stray us from the truth. Were were warned about Joseph Smith? Yes I can say we were. History again shows us, NOT to follow him, simply because he does as Jesus warned us sways from the truth.

If Joseph Smith were a true prophet why does his teachings differ from the teaching’s of Jesus Christ? So the question is simple, Did Jesus Christ fulfill scripture or J.S. I think the answer is pretty simple.

 

[Stephen168]

I assume then your answer is “no, I have not read it”. That is okay, but use this as an invitation to read the entire encyclical. It is a wonderful treatise on Faith and Reason.

I quoted from it. Reason would tell you I have read it. I also told you what it said about faith and reason.

You have not quoted from but seem to have claimed things in the letter which are not there. I can only assume at this point you have read what another Mormon claimed it said.

After you read it, you will discover how he condemns the Mormon use of faith. It goes into great detail on right reason.

 

[Stephen168]

Reason is the only sword we wield to understand God. Faith doesn’t grant understanding. I like how you used a captial R for when you wrote “at some point Reason fails.” This shows to me that you don’t have faith in properly used reason, for anyone can say that reason with a lowercase r can faith, but to say it with a capital? That is down right mad. Maybe you should become a mormon, they would welcome you with open arms.

Reason never fails because it is from God. As the Pope wrote in his letter it has a different object from reason. When properly applied, reason does not fail.

 

[JeanMichel]

I quoted from it. Reason would tell you I have read it. I also told you what it said about faith and reason.

You have not quoted from but seem to have claimed things in the letter which are not there. I can only assume at this point you have read what another Mormon claimed it said.

After you read it, you will discover how he condemns the Mormon use of faith. It goes into great detail on right reason.

Alas my brother, I have not only read it, but studied it. Your ability to “reason” by taking stipping a quote or two does not equate to having read it; that is philosophy 101. Regardless, it seems your “reason” differs greatly from my my own and from several scholars. Suffice it to say that I am less than confident in your position. There is no need for futher conversation; let us agree to disagree.

Let us move on.

 

[JeanMichel]

Also, I assume there is something that you think Reason will fail in regards to. Please show an example and I will refute it.

Please prove that God exists.
Please prove that Moses existed.
Please prove that God has power.
Please prove the difference between priesthood power and faith.

Should I go on?