If it is true that "God doesn't send people to hell"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Curious_Convert
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Curious_Convert

Guest
I sincerely hope that this honest plea for help does not offend or come across as irreverent

I often hear people say that “God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it by rejecting Him.” You know, the whole “the doors of hell are locked form within” argument (to quote C.S. Lewis). At first, it seems like a good way to reconcile a God that is infinitely loving, merciful, and just with the concept of eternal torment, but as much as I have tried to believe this, I am disturbed by these questions:

1.) Why does Jesus refer to people being cast into hell by an authoritative figure (King, Master, Judge) so frequently in his gospel parables? I haven’t taken time to look up the specific verses, but just from memory I can think of passages of people being ‘bound and cast into hell,’ and being kicked out of the ‘wedding feast’ by those throwing the party after discovering that they lacked the ‘wedding garment.’ People call out “Lord, Lord!” and Jesus says “Depart from me, I never knew you.” Jesus tells the ‘goats’ on his left who were unrighteous in life to ‘depart from me.’ In revelations, Jesus threatens to ‘spew the lukewarm out of his mouth’…In all of these passages, nothing is said about anyone choosing to be in hell.

2.) If hell really is a choice that people are free to make when alive and cannot change after death, why doesn’t God prolong these people’s earthly lives and continue to send them opportunities for repentance for as long as it takes for them to ‘wise up’? After all, it works for some people. If they are really free to choose heaven or hell (with the help of God’s grace of course) in the first place, then you can’t deny the possibility that they might repent with more time.

3.) Why does God resurrect both the just AND the unjust at the final judgment? Allowing people to suffer the spiritual consequences of their own sinful choices is one thing, but supernaturally resurrecting their bodies so that now they can feel physical pain as well for eternity is another matter entirely.

4.) Even if Hell is a result of disobedient and selfish choices, how can it be just and good that God allows it to exist for ever? If I tell my 12 year old son not to play with matches and lighter fluid and he disobeys me and catches himself on fire, it would be wrong for me to simply let him burn because “that’s what he chose.” I realize that I am not God and that all metaphors break down eventually, but you get the point.

Thanks in advance for any constructive responses! I believe that God’s ways are beyond mine and I don’t expect all the answers, but these questions have been haunting me for a while
 
I’m only going to answer number 4, because the others assume that God is evil and mean, and that someone who breaks the law isn’t responsible for the punishment. If you speed and get a ticket, with it posted everywhere, you still chose to speed! It’s really that simple.

But number 4, why does God allow hell to exist? Well if God is love, then being away from love means you don’t have it. If God is light… then being away from light means you don’t have it. Being away from God, means you don’t have what God is.

So if God exist… then a place with no love (hate), no light (darkness), no hope (despair), no pleasure (pain) exists when you are not in his presence. It’s a reality. If God then ‘hell’. If you hate the idea of being with God forever, then you can choose not to be… it’s really that simple… but if you choose to be away from God then you choose to give up everything that IS God for eternity.
 
Curious_Convert said:
I sincerely hope that this honest plea for help does not offend or come across as irreverent

I often hear people say that “God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it by rejecting Him.” You know, the whole “the doors of hell are locked form within” argument (to quote C.S. Lewis). At first, it seems like a good way to reconcile a God that is infinitely loving, merciful, and just with the concept of eternal torment, but as much as I have tried to believe this, I am disturbed by these questions:

1.) Why does Jesus refer to people being cast into hell by an authoritative figure (King, Master, Judge) so frequently in his gospel parables? I haven’t taken time to look up the specific verses, but just from memory I can think of passages of people being ‘bound and cast into hell,’ and being kicked out of the ‘wedding feast’ by those throwing the party after discovering that they lacked the ‘wedding garment.’ People call out “Lord, Lord!” and Jesus says “Depart from me, I never knew you.” Jesus tells the ‘goats’ on his left who were unrighteous in life to ‘depart from me.’ In revelations, Jesus threatens to ‘spew the lukewarm out of his mouth’…In all of these passages, nothing is said about anyone choosing to be in hell.

2.) If hell really is a choice that people are free to make when alive and cannot change after death, why doesn’t God prolong these people’s earthly lives and continue to send them opportunities for repentance for as long as it takes for them to ‘wise up’? After all, it works for some people. If they are really free to choose heaven or hell (with the help of God’s grace of course) in the first place, then you can’t deny the possibility that they might repent with more time.

3.) Why does God resurrect both the just AND the unjust at the final judgment? Allowing people to suffer the spiritual consequences of their own sinful choices is one thing, but supernaturally resurrecting their bodies so that now they can feel physical pain as well for eternity is another matter entirely.

4.) Even if Hell is a result of disobedient and selfish choices, how can it be just and good that God allows it to exist for ever? If I tell my 12 year old son not to play with matches and lighter fluid and he disobeys me and catches himself on fire, it would be wrong for me to simply let him burn because “that’s what he chose.” I realize that I am not God and that all metaphors break down eventually, but you get the point.

Thanks in advance for any constructive responses! I believe that God’s ways are beyond mine and I don’t expect all the answers, but these questions have been haunting me for a while
Click to expand...
Very interesting topic and I for one do not mind it,

and i have thought similar things , as for part number 1, with the wedding garment text, i have heard that numerous times, and i can only think, what ! are you serious, someone is going to hell because they wore the wrong thing, what if the person couldnt afford the proper clothing ?, did the person crash this wedding party, or maybe it is different to consider the person was invited, had the proper clothing and chose not to wear it !?

shrugs

And as to your part on why to spiritually bring back people both good and bad to be judged and then sent to Hell, instead of just letting them go straight to hell and skip judgement and an extra tormenting process.

I find that interesting enough,

If God deems the unjust and evil in this world to have done something so harmful against him, enough so that he sends that person to eternal hell, why does that person in turn not deserve the time to be judged publicly by God ?

God is slow to anger and rich in kindess, so God does get Angry and we should be plenty afraid when he does.

Also the biggest trick Satan has ever pulled over the eyes of humanity is that he does not exist. That hell is just some Myth because indeed God loves us so much why would he possibly let us go to Hell ?

Free will comes into play, the forces of hell an Satan come into play, and the fact that we are only human is a big part of it all, there is no way we can wrap our limited minds around the facts presented to us, but hopefully we will come to understanding in time if and when we reach our Lord in Heaven.

And of course no one chooses to go to hell, because why would they, plus there is the deceit that it does not exist, so no need to worry right !?

So then we enter into a mentality that I can just live for myself to achieve the best I can either honestly or with any intent be it good or bad, and nothing is going to happen to me as a result of my actions at least not on an eternal scale because God is all forgiving and Loving.

That alone is enough to say I am not taking that chance, because if God can get angry enough to send a flood, to plague Egypt, and Jesus himself became angry in the temple, surely there has to be the off chance that hell is real, even if i do not fully understand it.

There is my over simplified (name removed by moderator)ut to a topic that i find interesting to debate.
 
Curious_Convert said:
If I tell my 12 year old son not to play with matches and lighter fluid and he disobeys me and catches himself on fire, it would be wrong for me to simply let him burn because “that’s what he chose.”
Click to expand...
If you asked a girl to marry you and she said no, would you leave her alone or would you keep asking her over and over again? To me that’s the same thing.
 
“If you speed and get a ticket, with it posted everywhere, you still chose to speed! It’s really that simple.”

Bmullins, if you reread question #1, I think you will see that the gospels are in harmony with this statement. God lays down the law (speed limit). You choose to break it (by speeding). God punishes you for it with hell (a ticket) if you are unrepentant.

In that scenario, God is actively punishing. You do not search out the ticket, you are stopped by the authorities and it is given to you.

That is very different that those who claim that “God doesn’t send you to hell, you choose it.” Sure, you choose the disobedience, but God chooses the punishment, no?
“If you asked a girl to marry you and she said no, would you leave her alone or would you keep asking her over and over again? To me that’s the same thing.”

Good point Rainaldo. I would wish her well and let her go her own way. But with God, I think things are different, since He sustains your existence even in hell, where there is no chance of ever changing your mind because your time is up. Do you agree?
Thanks and keep it coming!..
 
bmullins said:
I’m only going to answer number 4, because the others assume that God is evil and mean, and that someone who breaks the law isn’t responsible for the punishment. If you speed and get a ticket, with it posted everywhere, you still chose to speed! It’s really that simple.
Click to expand...
Bmullins, if you reread my question #1, I think you will see that the gospels I mentioned are in harmony with this statement. God lays down the law (speed limit). You choose to break it (by speeding). God punishes you for it with hell (a ticket) if you persist in unrepentance unto death.

In that example, God is actively punishing. You do not search out the ticket, you are stopped by the authorities and it is given to you.

That is very different that those who claim that “God doesn’t send you to hell, you choose it.” Sure, you choose the disobedience, but God chooses the punishment, no? The sentence is eternity. God decides this, doesn’t He?

I agree with the rest of your post, I just can’t see how people deny that God has an active role in the punishment process.
 
Rainaldo said:
If you asked a girl to marry you and she said no, would you leave her alone or would you keep asking her over and over again? To me that’s the same thing.
Click to expand...
I like that metaphor. very relevant. I would let her know that I loved her, wish her well, and let her go her own way.

With God though, I think things are different, since He actively sustains your existence even in hell, where there is no chance of ever changing your mind because your time is up and you have persisted in unrepentance until death. He also resurrects your body so that it participates in the torment too. Correct?

Don’t mean to be difficult, just trying to get to the hard truth of the matter… Keep it coming folks!
 
Rainaldo said:
If you asked a girl to marry you and she said no, would you leave her alone or would you keep asking her over and over again? To me that’s the same thing.
Click to expand...
interesting analogy - it made me giggle a little to think about!
 
Number 4.

If you jump into a shallow river, despite being warned not to, and suffer a long-term injury, that is due to the nature of your human body. We are not designed to take full-body impacts with our heads.

Likewise, our soul is designed to be eternal, and to breathe with God in a pneumatikon soma. If by our willful action we make that impossible, the result of that choice will be eternal, it is just how we are made.

ICXC NIKA.
 
Yes, you point out the obvious that his new, modern approach to Hell is not found anywhere in the New Testament, but is, in fact, directly contradicted by the New Testament and most the writings of the Saints, Fathers and Doctors of the Church. I have wondered how this new teaching on Hell could suddenly appear and be accepted by virtually everyone.

But, on the other hand, why worry about it?

Just love God and love neighbor, and don’t worry about such theological complexities. Life is too short. Don’t make your faith and trust in God depend on all real or apparently contradictions being ironed out. God doesn’t have to be logical to the satisfaction of we mere mortals. Love itself is not logical. We are humans, not Vulcans (recall Mr. Spock), not robots (recall the Terminator).

Well, hope that was of some use to you.
 
GEddie said:
Number 4.

If you jump into a shallow river, despite being warned not to, and suffer a long-term injury, that is due to the nature of your human body. We are not designed to take full-body impacts with our heads.

Likewise, our soul is designed to be eternal, and to breathe with God in a pneumatikon soma. If by our willful action we make that impossible, the result of that choice will be eternal, it is just how we are made.

ICXC NIKA.
Click to expand...
I appreciate that approach. Makes sense. Basically, God decided to make the soul immortal from the beginning, and He’s not going back on that decision. I still don’t know what good it does for anyone if some suffer forever in hell without ever being able to change and improve their state, but I guess I just have to remember that the Church teaches that not all in hell are punished equally and whatever God decides to do will be just, even if I don’t understand how in this life…
 
Bartolome_Casas said:
Yes, you point out the obvious that his new, modern approach to Hell is not found anywhere in the New Testament, but is, in fact, directly contradicted by the New Testament and most the writings of the Saints, Fathers and Doctors of the Church. I have wondered how this new teaching on Hell could suddenly appear and be accepted by virtually everyone.
Click to expand...
Glad to see that someone else appreciates where I am coming from! The more I read the Church Father’s writings, the less I understand the ‘new take’ on hell.

Then again, maybe the Holy Spirit is guiding us into the deeper truth of the matter. Maybe people needed the ‘angry judge’ imagery at the time, and now we need the ‘wounded parent’ imagery… God only knows, but if so, both must be valid expressions of the truth, since Jesus spoke of God as a loving Father toward the repentant, but also an angry judge that casts the unrepentant into hell.
 
Curious_Convert said:
I sincerely hope that this honest plea for help does not offend or come across as irreverent

I often hear people say that “God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it by rejecting Him.” You know, the whole “the doors of hell are locked form within” argument (to quote C.S. Lewis). At first, it seems like a good way to reconcile a God that is infinitely loving, merciful, and just with the concept of eternal torment, but as much as I have tried to believe this, I am disturbed by these questions:

1.) Why does Jesus refer to people being cast into hell by an authoritative figure (King, Master, Judge) so frequently in his gospel parables? I haven’t taken time to look up the specific verses, but just from memory I can think of passages of people being ‘bound and cast into hell,’ and being kicked out of the ‘wedding feast’ by those throwing the party after discovering that they lacked the ‘wedding garment.’ People call out “Lord, Lord!” and Jesus says “Depart from me, I never knew you.” Jesus tells the ‘goats’ on his left who were unrighteous in life to ‘depart from me.’ In revelations, Jesus threatens to ‘spew the lukewarm out of his mouth’…In all of these passages, nothing is said about anyone choosing to be in hell.

2.) If hell really is a choice that people are free to make when alive and cannot change after death, why doesn’t God prolong these people’s earthly lives and continue to send them opportunities for repentance for as long as it takes for them to ‘wise up’? After all, it works for some people. If they are really free to choose heaven or hell (with the help of God’s grace of course) in the first place, then you can’t deny the possibility that they might repent with more time.

3.) Why does God resurrect both the just AND the unjust at the final judgment? Allowing people to suffer the spiritual consequences of their own sinful choices is one thing, but supernaturally resurrecting their bodies so that now they can feel physical pain as well for eternity is another matter entirely.

4.) Even if Hell is a result of disobedient and selfish choices, how can it be just and good that God allows it to exist for ever? If I tell my 12 year old son not to play with matches and lighter fluid and he disobeys me and catches himself on fire, it would be wrong for me to simply let him burn because “that’s what he chose.” I realize that I am not God and that all metaphors break down eventually, but you get the point.

Thanks in advance for any constructive responses! I believe that God’s ways are beyond mine and I don’t expect all the answers, but these questions have been haunting me for a while
Click to expand...
People pretty much cast themselves into hell by denying God after they have seen he is clearly their. Jesus yoke is pretty light, We are Baptized In The Name Of The Father, The Son, And The Holy Spirit. We have to eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son Of Man, and lover our neighbor and love our God, for these two things go hand in hand. By the way, ask the Father to reveal it to you. If he does not, consider it a blessing. If he does, consider it a blessing. He is a Good Father, and always wants to bless us in his love.
 
Curious_Convert said:
I appreciate that approach. Makes sense. Basically, God decided to make the soul immortal from the beginning, and He’s not going back on that decision. I still don’t know what good it does for anyone if some suffer forever in hell without ever being able to change and improve their state, but I guess I just have to remember that the Church teaches that not all in hell are punished equally and whatever God decides to do will be just, even if I don’t understand how in this life…
Click to expand...
Of course it doesn’t do any good for souls to be in Hell. That’s why God exerts Himself so much on our behalf, concerns Himself so much with our salvation and gives us so many warnings and chances to avoid it.

Neither does it do us good to speed, pollute, do drugs and many other things. Yet people still persist in spite of all the strenuous efforts of our doctors, scientists and lawmakers and enforcers to discourage these behaviors and publicise the dire consequences attached to them.
 
Bottom Line:

If the Holy Spirit is not living within your soul at the time of your death, you are cast into hell.

God will not know the person who lacks His Holy Spirit’s presence in his heart/soul/temple at the time of his death and He only approves for eternal life the persons whom He knows.

Matthew 25:1-13 RSV
[1] "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
[2] Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
[3] For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them;
[4] but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
[5] As the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
[6] But at midnight there was a cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.' [7] Then all those maidens rose and trimmed their lamps. [8] **And the foolish said to the wise, Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out**.’
[9] **But the wise replied, Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.'** [10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut. [11] Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, Lord, lord, open to us.’
[12] But he replied, `Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
[13] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

The foolish virgins’ lamps (faith) lacked the oil (good works) necessary to be a light to the world and so they were not granted entrance into eternal life. They did not get another chance to enter into the wedding feast/eternal life once the door of heaven was closed to them. Once a person dies, he gets no more chances to do good works and thereby be approved to enter into eternal life.

Matthew 5:16 RSV
[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

John 3:19 RSV
[19] And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

See also Luke 13:23-27 and Matthew 7:21-23.

It is the Holy Spirit’s presence within a person’s soul/heart/temple at the time of his death which guarantees his eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:5 RSV
[22] he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

God gives His Holy Spirit to the people who obey Him. He takes away His Holy Spirit from those who disobey His commandments.

Acts 5:32 RSV
[32] And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

The Holy Spirit does not continue to live in a person who has defiled his soul/temple with mortal sin. Instead, if he dies in this state of disobedience, he will be condemned to hell.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 RSV
[16] Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
[17] If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.

1 John 5: 16-17 RSV
[16] If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
[17] All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

If a person dies in a state of mortal sin, he will be condemned to hell.

What happens to this disobedient person who has died in the state of mortal sin?

Ephesians 5:5-7 RSV
[5] Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
[6] Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
[7] Therefore do not associate with them,

The wrath of God punishes all those who are disobedient.

Take heed:

Matthew 19:16-19 RSV
[16] And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?”
[17] And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
[18] He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
[19] Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

He really does require obedience to His commandments in order to be approved to enter into eternal life.
 
I appreciate the responses.

I see that some take Jesus’ warning to ‘fear Him who can cast both body and soul into hell’ in the plain sense of the words. Others take it to mean ‘fear yourself, who alone can cast into hell.’

I agree that in an abstract sense people ‘choose hell’ for themselves, but in a direct biblical sense, it is God who sends you there as a punishment if you are unwilling accept His grace and repent. I don’t see how denying that will do anyone any good if Jesus taught us to view the situation in that manner.

thoughts?
 
Jesus said “If you love Me, you will keep my Commandments”. To break the Commandments or go against the teachings of Jesus or His Church is to choose not to love Him.

God gives us umpteen opportunities to repent. Jesus says to the adultrous woman “Go and sin no more!” He showed His Mercy, but He told her to ‘sin no more’. We have the Confessional where we are forgiven over and over again. We have no cause for complaint. Jesus left us His Body and Blood and every means to seek His Mercy and get it.

Those who continually sin and never give God a thought, choose their own damnation. Marino Restrepo has an amazing testimony as one who has seen Hell. We must take responsibility for our actions. You can listen to him on Youtube. It helps to understand the concept of why the soul would ‘choose’ Hell - it is impossible for a person consumed by the darkness of their own sins to look into the Face of God. The soul runs to Hell. Hell is a Mercy of God, believe it or not.

Jesus knows what lies in the heart. When we stand before Him in His Judgement Seat, we will see ourselves with devastating clarity. Then see if we will be able to make excuses for ourselves. Pray that we will die in a state of grace!!

This is one of the hardest things for us humans to come to grips with. There is a wrong concept of God being a mean or vengeful God because there IS a hell. In fact, ask yourself, where would you put those who reject God’s Mercy? Jesus is rejected and blasphemed in our times more than at any other. Where should these people go? Heaven? They choose not to go there. God, in His Mercy, gives them another choice. Those who choose damnation, run there.

Read the sermon of St Leonard of Port Maurice. It is freely available on the Internet. It is sobering, but it gives you a much better understanding of the nature of God.
 
Curious_Convert said:
I appreciate the responses.

I see that some take Jesus’ warning to ‘fear Him who can cast both body and soul into hell’ in the plain sense of the words. Others take it to mean ‘fear yourself, who alone can cast into hell.’

I agree that in an abstract sense people ‘choose hell’ for themselves, but in a direct biblical sense, it is God who sends you there as a punishment if you are unwilling accept His grace and repent. I don’t see how denying that will do anyone any good if Jesus taught us to view the situation in that manner.

thoughts?
Click to expand...
There are so many ways to answer your initial question. I think the simplest is to say, with all Catholic Christian love and kindness, that you are not understanding the nature of God. God does not do things the way we do. When you ask your question, you infer, I am sure without realising it, that you are kinder than God. If you were God, you infer, you would never be so mean as to throw someone into Hell, no matter what they did. To carry on that way of thinking, there would then be no need for Jesus to die on the Cross for our sins. God would not have taken the Chosen People out of Egypt. Why would He?

The fact is, God wants us to be saved. He has done everything and given everything to us for that purpose. This is why He sent His Only Son to die on the Cross for us. Jesus suffered the agony in the Garden of Gethsemene for all those who would reject Him. If we continue to reject Him, we throw away our only opportunity to be saved. In sin we were conceived. We are a sinful lot, since the time of Adam and Eve.

Jesus’ suffering on the Cross and dying for us was the only Way for us to reach salvation. It is in keeping with the sacrificial lamb, who was slain, his blood drained from his body and his flesh eaten during the Passover. Jesus is the Lamb of God. Jesus said that we must believe in Him or we will never get into Heaven or see the Father or have Life in us. Believe Him. Do not second-guess God or think for even an instant that you are wiser or better than God. We are nothing but dust. If it wasn’t for Jesus, we would ALL go to Hell.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top