If It Seems Wrong.... It Is

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Singinbeauty

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Good Afternoon All! :tiphat:

I haven’t been here a lot but I wanted to get a topic going on something that I have been thinking about lately. A lot of the time protestants and catholics ask whether this or that action is considered a ‘sin’. If I do this I feel like I am sinning but I wanna make sure. One thing my Dad taught me was that if you feel as if something is wrong, then it is in God’s eyes whether or not it actually is considered a sin in the Church’s eyes.

For instance, the situation that brought this lesson on was that I had been sneaking into some photos and letters from my parent’s marriage days (they are now divorced) that my Dad kept in a piano bench. Not really hidden away but when he ‘caught’ me going through it I looked and felt REALLY guilty. I had thought that it was wrong. My Dad hadn’t considered it a bad thing for me to look through the photo’s but since I did it anyway thinking it was wrong he had me do dishes or something…

What do you think?
 
In general, I wouldn’t agree with the premise “If you think it’s sin for you, it is sinful.” Any of us may be mistaken, misinformed, or badly formed spiritually to think something is a sin, when in fact it is not. For example, many people have been taught that any and all alcohol consumption is sinful, when in fact, this is highly debatable, to say the least. Contrariwise, someone else may be taught that premarital sex is OK – as long as you are in love and commited. Again, this is patently false, feelings notwithstanding.

It is my opinion (and the teaching of the Church), that sins are objective, that is, some actions are sinful in and of themselves. For some actions, there may be mitigating factors, but this is the exception, rather than the rule.

The thing to do is to recognize the sinfulness or non-sinfulness of your actions. Is it wrong, in general, to read the personal mail of others (especially if they are still alive) without their permission? Objectively, I would say it is wrong. A mitigating circumstance would be if they gave permission or if you needed to look for information that might save their life, for instance.

Long and short – it depends.🙂
 
I agree with Fidelis but wanted to say one other thing.

I’d say that while you were not breaking a rule in looking at photos, you were “Sneaking” around to do something when you figured you shouldn’t. I’d say it was the sneaking itself that was wrong rather than what you were sneaking. It is better to ask if something is a sin if you arent’ sure, or even if you WANT to do something you think is wrong (Because it might not be) than to go around trying to do it behind other’s backs. You can’t hide from God anyhow.
 
I believe that a sin is anything that separates us from the loving, saving grace of the Father. A well known psychologist admonishes her radio listeners with “If you have to ask yourself if it is right or wrong…you already know the answer”.
Are you accustomed to going through Dad’s cabinets, drawers, piano benches…etc., etc. If yes, then you were not sneaking. If you are a “stranger” in the house, you should have asked permission.
God’s peace be with you~
Renee
 
I think you are all saying what I was trying to put out there… though the action was not wrong in my Dad’s eyes it was wrong because I did it thinking it was wrong. Does this make sense?🙂
 
Singinbeauty said:
I think you are all saying what I was trying to put out there… though the action was not wrong in my Dad’s eyes it was wrong because I did it thinking it was wrong. Does this make sense?🙂
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I wouldn’t say that. One of the criteria of being culpable of sin is knowing that it is a sin. If your dad didn’t think it wrong of you to look into the piano bench at his photos, then you have committed no wrong. However, you were guilty of a social faux pas in that you didn’t ask if it was all right first. It was no doubt embarrassing for you, but not a sin.
 
Della said:
I wouldn’t say that. One of the criteria of being culpable of sin is knowing that it is a sin. If your dad didn’t think it wrong of you to look into the piano bench at his photos, then you have committed no wrong. However, you were guilty of a social faux pas in that you didn’t ask if it was all right first. It was no doubt embarrassing for you, but not a sin.
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I agree with Della–as usual. 🙂
 
Della said:
I wouldn’t say that. One of the criteria of being culpable of sin is knowing that it is a sin. If your dad didn’t think it wrong of you to look into the piano bench at his photos, then you have committed no wrong. However, you were guilty of a social faux pas in that you didn’t ask if it was all right first. It was no doubt embarrassing for you, but not a sin.
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Della, you might have missed this but the material in the piano bench was more than family photos but included private correspondence between the father and the mother, who were divorced at the time. While Dad may not have cared if Singing read the correspondence, it should be assumed that the Mom may have expected some modicum of privacy and confidentiality, especially or potentially from the Daughter.

It was probably a sin but a minor sin. Severity of sin is the combination of the act (looking in the piano bench/reading these private letters but left in an acceptable place), the object or harmed person (dad who didn’t seem to care but a mom who may care), and the intent (it is obvious that you were snooping which is an offense against the truth by wanting to know something to which you had no right).

The object doesn’t always get to define whether or not it is a sin. For example, if my grandma didn’t care that I took a dollar out of her purse to play the pinball machines, I’m still not excused for my taking that what doesn’t belong to me. So it is in this instance, Dad’s ambivalence to the content of those letters doesn’t absolve Singing for two reasons. Mom may have cared and without permission we don’t have a right to private matters of another person.
 
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Orionthehunter:
The object doesn’t always get to define whether or not it is a sin. For example, if my grandma didn’t care that I took a dollar out of her purse to play the pinball machines, I’m still not excused for my taking that what doesn’t belong to me. So it is in this instance, Dad’s ambivalence to the content of those letters doesn’t absolve Singing for two reasons. Mom may have cared and without permission we don’t have a right to private matters of another person.
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I did forget about the mother’s things being in the piano bench. In that case I’d fault the father for not securing his ex-wife’s correspondence where no one, including their daughter, was likely to find it. After all, most people have sheet music in a piano bench, not personal correspondence between a divorced couple that shouldn’t be casually read by all and sundry.

Dad may have been ambivalent, but he should have taken his ex-wife into account if he didn’t want his daughter reading their correspondence. It seems to me that he was either being careless or he wanted his daughter “stumble” onto the photos and writings.

I still maintain she committed no sin, but if I were her, I’d contact her mother to let her know she read the material and to ask her what she’d like to see done with it.
 
I’m not so sure I agree with some of these posts…

If I thought, for whatever reason, that the Church claimed eating green bananas was a sin and I intentionally did it anyway…that’s the sin of disobedience, isn’t it? It doesn’t matter that the Church has no such rule, but rather that I believed she did and I believed I was intentionally transgressing that rule. My subjective intent was sinful, and therefore no matter how moral the act I have committed a sin.

Of course, the contrapositive is definitely not correct; namely, “It’s not a sin if I don’t think it is.” This is not true, as if it were you would be a saint by simply disbelieving in sin. The subjective intent may be correct, but the objective nature of the act makes the act immoral (sinful). And further, even if the act itself was moral it may yet be done in an inappropriate time/place. Take making love to your wife, for example. The act itself is fine, we’ll assume the subjective intent is fine as well…but if I do it in the middle of a cocktail party I’m committing a sin (namely, the sin of immodesty).

Thus, it would seem, to act morally you must positively satisfy three criteria: (1) the objective nature of the act itself must be moral, (2) the subjective intent behind the act must be moral, and (3) the relative circumstances in which the act is committed must be moral. If you go wrong in any one of these, the act is sinful.

Does that seem to be the case to anyone else?

God Bless,
RyanL
 
RyanL said:
I’m not so sure I agree with some of these posts…

If I thought, for whatever reason, that the Church claimed eating green bananas was a sin and I intentionally did it anyway…that’s the sin of disobedience, isn’t it? It doesn’t matter that the Church has no such rule, but rather that I believed she did and I believed I was intentionally transgressing that rule. My subjective intent was sinful, and therefore no matter how moral the act I have committed a sin.

Of course, the contrapositive is definitely not correct; namely, “It’s not a sin if I don’t think it is.” This is not true, as if it were you would be a saint by simply disbelieving in sin. The subjective intent may be correct, but the objective nature of the act makes the act immoral (sinful). And further, even if the act itself was moral it may yet be done in an inappropriate time/place. Take making love to your wife, for example. The act itself is fine, we’ll assume the subjective intent is fine as well…but if I do it in the middle of a cocktail party I’m committing a sin (namely, the sin of immodesty).

Thus, it would seem, to act morally you must positively satisfy three criteria: (1) the objective nature of the act itself must be moral, (2) the subjective intent behind the act must be moral, and (3) the relative circumstances in which the act is committed must be moral. If you go wrong in any one of these, the act is sinful.

Does that seem to be the case to anyone else?

God Bless,
RyanL
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I agree and that is what I tried to say. Singing knew she it was wrong to read the private correspondence of her divorced parents.
 
Singinbeauty said:
…One thing my Dad taught me was that if you feel as if something is wrong, then it is in God’s eyes whether or not it actually is considered a sin in the Church’s eyes…
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That’s a valid point and one that I felt was true when examining the Eucharist issue. Believing that a small wheat disc was my Lord and Savior seemed like such a HUGE sin *(of idolatry) *to me that, no matter how many times I heard otherwise, something deep within me was cringing at the very thought.

It was as if God Himself was telling me NOT to believe that an inanimate object could ever be the same Jesus who died on a cross to save me. The golden calf just kept sticking out in my mind.

I certainly felt that believing God was in my hand in the form of a round disc was DREADFULLY sinful and it just doesn’t feel right in my heart, yet the Roman Catholic religion does not consider this to be a sin, so my soul’s been at odd about it ever since.
 
ChristianWAB said:
That’s a valid point and one that I felt was true when examining the Eucharist issue. Believing that a small wheat disc was my Lord and Savior seemed like such a HUGE sin *(of idolatry) *to me that, no matter how many times I heard otherwise, something deep within me was cringing at the very thought.

It was as if God Himself was telling me NOT to believe that an inanimate object could ever be the same Jesus who died on a cross to save me. The golden calf just kept sticking out in my mind.

I certainly felt that believing God was in my hand in the form of a round disc was DREADFULLY sinful and it just doesn’t feel right in my heart, yet the Roman Catholic religion does not consider this to be a sin, so my soul’s been at odd about it ever since.
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While her point might be valid, your analogy is not. No matter what I think about stealing, murder, etc., to do so is always a sin. We are talking about sinful acts and not theological beliefs.

The matter at hand is discerning what acts that are not covered explicitly in the Scripture may be sinful and the extenuating circumstances. There is nothing in the Bible about looking at private letters of another found in a piano bench so it isn’t a debate about John 6 and what it means as is your analogy.
 
ChristianWAB said:
That’s a valid point and one that I felt was true when examining the Eucharist issue. Believing that a small wheat disc was my Lord and Savior seemed like such a HUGE sin *(of idolatry) *to me that, no matter how many times I heard otherwise, something deep within me was cringing at the very thought.

It was as if God Himself was telling me NOT to believe that an inanimate object could ever be the same Jesus who died on a cross to save me. The golden calf just kept sticking out in my mind.

I certainly felt that believing God was in my hand in the form of a round disc was DREADFULLY sinful and it just doesn’t feel right in my heart, yet the Roman Catholic religion does not consider this to be a sin, so my soul’s been at odd about it ever since.
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There’s a big difference, though…by not, say, looking at the Photos and letters–thus keeping in good conscience and not subjectively sinning–Singing is not disobeying the teachings. Your analogy would be the same as saying that, if someone felt guilty for correcting the sins of someone who asked their opinion, say because they felt it would be arrogant or hurt the latter person’s feelings, then it’s okay to refrain. That would be dangerous, and would go against the concluding verses in James; so we see, perhaps, another qualifying precaution: Feeling guilty about something is not sufficient grounds to refrain from or condemn the given revelation to God’s people…
 
Orionthehunter said:
While her point might be valid, your analogy is not. No matter what I think about stealing, murder, etc., to do so is always a sin. We are talking about sinful acts and not theological beliefs.

The matter at hand is discerning what acts that are not covered explicitly in the Scripture may be sinful and the extenuating circumstances. There is nothing in the Bible about looking at private letters of another found in a piano bench so it isn’t a debate about John 6 and what it means as is your analogy.
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Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, Orion.
 
I think that some of the posters here are missing my point. While looking at the pictures and letters (of which weren’t addressed between Dad and my Mom but some were letters from my Mother to me and my brothers 🙂 ) wasn’t considered wrong by my Dad the fact that I, in my heart, THOUGHT it wrong to look at them made it a sin. It’s not so much the actions but the motive behind it. I was willfully disobeying my Dad by looking because I did it believing I was wrong.
 
Forming your conscience is the one of the most important things you will ever do.

You’re right, but what if you didn’t feel guilty about violating your parent’s privacy? Would it still be wrong to do so? You betcha!

The problem with defining sin, is that people have to know it’s wrong and deliberately do it, for it to be a sin. Of course, moral truth is written in our hearts, but sometimes cultural teaching can twist it.

That’s why it is easier to say, “that was wrong to do that.” than to say “it is a sin to do that.” It’s hard to know someone’s heart.

That’s why we have to constantly be forming our consciences.
 
Singinbeauty, I just wanted to let you know that, as for me, I see your point…and it is a really good point, in my opinion; if you can’t do something in good conscience, don’t do it, as long as not doing it isn’t in itself wrong. My previous post was just to counter the position (which you never took, so no worries there) that the same rule would apply to doing even the right thing, such as having the right beliefs about the body and blood of Christ at Communion (“Don’t do it if it makes you feel bad”). Taking that position could lead to right and wrong being totally relative; but we know that some things are inherently right, and others inherently wrong. Again, that’s not what you were saying, and I know that. I apologize if my post was one of those that you felt was a misunderstanding.
 
Of course its sinful to do something that you believe is sinful, even if its not.

Its not sinful for the action, but the fact that you are defying God anyway.

Peace and God Bless.
 
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