If it was a civil union

[Carobean]

I’m going through the RCIA course at our local perish. My husband of 2 years is Catholic and has received his sacraments up through Confirmation. We’ve run into this snag through with my RCIA/baptism.

I was married when I was 19 years old for about a year. The marriage was done with a judge as a Civil Union. It was a very unhappy and unhealthy marriage. My husband was emotionally abusive, and it was a major relief when the divorce I filed for came through.

Our Bishop says that I have to now get in touch with my ex husband to find out if he was baptized in the Catholic Church or not before I can even complete the RCIA course with baptism. It took a tremendous effort to even bring myself to get out of a highly unhealthy relationship in the first place and now the Bishop is saying I have to get back in contact with this guy?

Shouldn’t a church official have access to records to be able to see for himself if my ex husband was baptized in the Catholic Church if I provide the Bishop with my ex’s name and such? If it turns out my ex was baptized and my process takes longer, fine it is what it is. But I see no reason why I should have to try and contact someone that was abusive to me for church policy.

I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on this for me. I understand I’m new to the ways of the Catholic Church so there is most likely something I just don’t understand. I am meeting with the Bishop tomorrow and will be taking a notarized copy of both the wedding civil union certificate and divorce papers with me. I’m just feeling really pressured to talk to my ex husband for all of this and it doesn’t make sense as to why I should have to.

 

[curlycool89]

The process your going through is an annulment. The issue at hand is the type of your first marriage, or whether it was a valid marriage. If it is found to be not valid, they will issue a decree of nullity (what it means is that your first marriage in effect never happened).

I guess the one thing you didn’t mention was your current marriage. I don’t mean to pry, but was it done in a Catholic Church? Because they really should have gone through this at that time. Anyways…

If your ex was Catholic, then your marriage was what we’d call “not valid” because Catholics are obliged to follow the Catholic norms for marriage (ie in a Church by a priest ordinarily). So in that case, your first marriage would be declared to be null (ie it never existed in the first place), and you’re free to continue through the process.

If your ex was not Catholic, then there’s an issue. That is that you’re still married to him. We don’t believe in divorce (it affects civil matters, not religious matters). They would need to know if he was baptized or not then because that would decide which process is next.

If he wasn’t, then you go through what’s called Pauline privilege to have the marriage dissolved. If he was baptized, then you’d need to go through what’s called a Petrine Privilege to have the marriage dissolved. Since you are currently unbaptized, you would be eligible to go through either of these processes (being unbaptized, your first marriage was not sacramental and thus dissolvable).

Essentially, it’s dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s. I hope this helps!

 

[m134e5]

Marriage vows are binding until the death of one spouse. If neither are Catholic, they aren’t bound to observe the marriage laws of the Church. Marriages of non-Catholics may still be valid, even if they don’t follow the proper form prescribed by the Church. Before the Church blesses a marriage, they must make sure they *can *bless it- the people must be free to marry each other.

The Church has handled situations involving abusive ex-spouses before, and they do take your physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being seriously. There are resources out there for those in situations like yours. Maybe your pastor can help you contact who can help you through the process.

 

[phoenixrrt62]

The process your going through is an annulment. The issue at hand is the type of your first marriage, or whether it was a valid marriage. If it is found to be not valid, they will issue a decree of nullity (what it means is that your first marriage in effect never happened).

I guess the one thing you didn’t mention was your current marriage. I don’t mean to pry, but was it done in a Catholic Church? Because they really should have gone through this at that time. Anyways…

If your ex was Catholic, then your marriage was what we’d call “not valid” because Catholics are obliged to follow the Catholic norms for marriage (ie in a Church by a priest ordinarily). So in that case, your first marriage would be declared to be null (ie it never existed in the first place), and you’re free to continue through the process.

If your ex was not Catholic, then there’s an issue. That is that you’re still married to him. We don’t believe in divorce (it affects civil matters, not religious matters). They would need to know if he was baptized or not then because that would decide which process is next.

If he wasn’t, then you go through what’s called Pauline privilege to have the marriage dissolved. If he was baptized, then you’d need to go through what’s called a Petrine Privilege to have the marriage dissolved. Since you are currently unbaptized, you would be eligible to go through either of these processes (being unbaptized, your first marriage was not sacramental and thus dissolvable).

Essentially, it’s dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s. I hope this helps!

Wow. REALLY?

Curious. What if you were baptized Catholic-and this was against your parent’s wish? What if there was NO intention for you be be raised in the faith?
Just say the ex WAS baptized, but he never followed his faith? Why would his ex have to suffer for that?
Why would she have to even go through that mess at ALL? It was a*** civil union***. Whatever he did/believed prior shouldn’t have to affect her, I’d think.
Wow. Just…wow.
Makes no sense to me, but…hey.

 

[Seatuck]

I’m going through the RCIA course at our local perish. My husband of 2 years is Catholic and has received his sacraments up through Confirmation. We’ve run into this snag through with my RCIA/baptism.

I was married when I was 19 years old for about a year. The marriage was done with a judge as a Civil Union. It was a very unhappy and unhealthy marriage. My husband was emotionally abusive, and it was a major relief when the divorce I filed for came through.

Our Bishop says that I have to now get in touch with my ex husband to find out if he was baptized in the Catholic Church or not before I can even complete the RCIA course with baptism. It took a tremendous effort to even bring myself to get out of a highly unhealthy relationship in the first place and now the Bishop is saying I have to get back in contact with this guy?

Shouldn’t a church official have access to records to be able to see for himself if my ex husband was baptized in the Catholic Church if I provide the Bishop with my ex’s name and such? If it turns out my ex was baptized and my process takes longer, fine it is what it is. But I see no reason why I should have to try and contact someone that was abusive to me for church policy.

I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on this for me. I understand I’m new to the ways of the Catholic Church so there is most likely something I just don’t understand. I am meeting with the Bishop tomorrow and will be taking a notarized copy of both the wedding civil union certificate and divorce papers with me. I’m just feeling really pressured to talk to my ex husband for all of this and it doesn’t make sense as to why I should have to.

If your ex was Catholic it would actually make the process shorter and easier. Catholics are bound by the laws of the church on marriage which were not followed in either your first or your current marital endeavors. If your ex is not Catholic then the longer form of investigation into the marriage must be undertaken.

The Church doesn’t have a master list of people’s names and if and where they were baptized. We must go to the individual parishes where the records for Sacraments are kept. You need to tell your Bishop about your inability to make contact with your ex because of abuse and request the church to do all the contact for you . You will have to provide the best contact information you can so that they can proceed.

As was said before , we see marriage as a permanent situation unless there was something vital missing at the time the marriage vows took place.

I encourage you to participate in the process of seeking a decree of nullity and also of entering the church. It’s not only vital for you but for your husband who is in a seriously problematic situation being in an invalid marriage.

Praying for you .

 

[curlycool89]

Wow. REALLY?

Curious. What if you were baptized Catholic-and this was against your parent’s wish? What if there was NO intention for you be be raised in the faith?

If someone is baptized, they are baptized. Baptism leaves an indelible mark on a person’s soul, it does not matter if one does not practice. Although it would be a highly irregular form of baptism to do it against the parents wishes, as long as it was done the proper way (pouring of water, “I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”), then it would be a valid baptism.

Just say the ex WAS baptized, but he never followed his faith? Why would his ex have to suffer for that?

It’s essentially the same question. Practice doesn’t matter, only the fact that he was baptized at all. In the case of the OP, since she’s seeking baptism along with RCIA I assume that she is unbaptized. Her marriage would be dissolvable because being unbaptized it is non-sacramental.

Why would she have to even go through that mess at ALL? It was a*** civil union***. Whatever he did/believed prior shouldn’t have to affect her, I’d think.
Wow. Just…wow.
Makes no sense to me, but…hey.

The Church doesn’t regulate marriage for non-Catholics. If 2 non-Catholics want to get married by a Justice of the Peace, they can (we call it “natural marriage”). Sacramentally, there’s no such thing as a civil union. When 1 man and 1 women are joined together, it is a marriage, no matter what name you want to throw on it.

Marriage is meant to be permanent. Christ said in Matthew 19, “Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate”. We can’t change that; we don’t have the power nor the right to do that.

 

[Phemie]

The Church doesn’t regulate marriage for non-Catholics. If 2 non-Catholics want to get married by a Justice of the Peace, they can (we call it “natural marriage”).

Not so if they’re both baptized. Baptism determines whether the marriage of non-Catholics is sacramental or natural, not where it was celebrated or who the officiant was.

 

[curlycool89]

Not so if they’re both baptized. Baptism determines whether the marriage of non-Catholics is sacramental or natural, not where it was celebrated or who the officiant was.

Yes, you’re right. Only if one isn’t baptized is it a natural marriage.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I’m going through the RCIA course at our local perish. My husband of 2 years is Catholic and has received his sacraments up through Confirmation. We’ve run into this snag through with my RCIA/baptism.

I was married when I was 19 years old for about a year. The marriage was done with a judge as a Civil Union. It was a very unhappy and unhealthy marriage. My husband was emotionally abusive, and it was a major relief when the divorce I filed for came through.

Our Bishop says that I have to now get in touch with my ex husband to find out if he was baptized in the Catholic Church or not before I can even complete the RCIA course with baptism. It took a tremendous effort to even bring myself to get out of a highly unhealthy relationship in the first place and now the Bishop is saying I have to get back in contact with this guy?

Shouldn’t a church official have access to records to be able to see for himself if my ex husband was baptized in the Catholic Church if I provide the Bishop with my ex’s name and such? If it turns out my ex was baptized and my process takes longer, fine it is what it is. But I see no reason why I should have to try and contact someone that was abusive to me for church policy.

I would appreciate it if someone could shed some light on this for me. I understand I’m new to the ways of the Catholic Church so there is most likely something I just don’t understand. I am meeting with the Bishop tomorrow and will be taking a notarized copy of both the wedding civil union certificate and divorce papers with me. I’m just feeling really pressured to talk to my ex husband for all of this and it doesn’t make sense as to why I should have to.

Take a nice deep breath and then breathe out slowly. I know what it can be like to have anxiety.

Now, try and put this in perspective. If you want to be baptised into the Catholic Church and have a valid marriage you’ve got to go through this process. There’s no option so you need to think of ways you can do it which give you the least stress. One poster has suggested that you give the diocese all necessary details to track down his baptismal records, if they exist. I can’t say whether they’ll do it. If not is there any third party you know and trust who could obtain the information on your behalf.

I don’t want to add to your stress levels, but I believe it’s better to know what you might face. There remains the possibility that this former spouse may not cooperate. You may as well be prepared for that possibility. But, if he does don’t panic! It can lengthen the process but he cannot as the respondent stop your annulment process from proceeding.

 

[Evan]

If you find it difficult to contact your ex, how about his parents or siblings? Maybe get an intermediary (mutual aquantences).

Perhaps you could offer the pain to God for the benefit of married couples.

 

[HAnne]

If you find it difficult to contact your ex, how about his parents or siblings? Maybe get an intermediary (mutual aquantences).

I second this idea. His mother and father would most likely know that he was baptized, what kind of church it was in, and most likely know where it was done. All you need is that information. I would highly consider contacting them and asking if they would be willing to help you.

 

[Carobean]

Thank you for the replies. We met with our Bishop today and it cleared up some misunderstandings. I thought I would have to be the one to talk to my ex husband to get the information about if he was baptized and with which religious organization. However, as a couple of you have mentioned if I can find someone that would know the information or that could act as an intermediate that would suffice.

I was pretty confused also about being told if he was baptized it would lengthen the process, because if he were baptized that would have made the marriage with my ex invalid (according to canon). But it was also confirmed through this thread and with the Bishop today that if he was baptized Catholic it would actually not affect anything because the marriage would be considered invalid. It is only if he was baptized in another organization that it will lengthen the process.

In the meeting today the Bishop said he would even attempt to find my ex himself with some internet research if needed. He was very understanding about the fact I ended the relationship due to abuse and therefor don’t really have direct ties. Mostly it was just some misunderstandings through lack of clarifications.

Thank you for responding and explaining the whats, whys, and hows. I am still a bit baffled as to how an organization so big could have such poor record access, but to each their own I suppose

PS. No I am not baptized. Hence RCIA I just did my Rite of Acceptance today - yay!

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I am still a bit baffled as to how an organization so big could have such poor record access, but to each their own I suppose

Please, think about it.

How many Catholics are there? My mother, for example, was baptised in 1935. There were no computers then. Should a copy of EVERY sacramental record have been sent to the Vatican? Where would they store them all?

Now we have computers how long would it take, how much would it cost, what other resources would be needed to put on the records of all living people that were baptised, confirmed, married, etc. before the internet?

It is completely unrealistic to expect the Catholic Church to hold a central database of those in communion with her.

If it did can you guess how many people would be unhappy about being on such a database?

Btw, the Catholic Church probably maintains some of the best and most complete records than most other organisations.

Just some things for you to think about.

 

[Phemie]

Matthew’s right, before computers it would have been too cumbersome to keep central records. It’s still not done worldwide but some dioceses have established some way of keeping records a bit centralized.

For example, in this area there used to be 4 parishes: the local parish, two military parishes and a native mission. For a while our parish priest took care of the two military parishes as well as the local parish since the military didn’t provide a Catholic Padre. Sacraments were recorded in the registers of the parishes where they were celebrated even though the same priest did it all. Both military parishes have closed and the registers were sent back to their ‘diocese’ so it often happens that someone will call for a certificate of baptism and I have to refer them to the Military Ordinariate (diocese) two thousand miles away.

The native parish had a fire in the early 80s and all the registers were destroyed. Luckily, two of the early priests had kept personal registers which were still in existence so we have photocopies of those registers but are still missing documentation from 1946-1953 and from 1964 to the mid 1980s.

In response to that, the diocese implemented a policy whereby, at the beginning of the year, we photocopy the entries from the year before and forward them to the diocesan archives. That would prevent the total loss of documents should there be a fire or a natural disaster.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Matthew’s right, before computers it would have been too cumbersome to keep central records. It’s still not done worldwide but some dioceses have established some way of keeping records a bit centralized.

For example, in this area there used to be 4 parishes: the local parish, two military parishes and a native mission. For a while our parish priest took care of the two military parishes as well as the local parish since the military didn’t provide a Catholic Padre. Sacraments were recorded in the registers of the parishes where they were celebrated even though the same priest did it all. Both military parishes have closed and the registers were sent back to their ‘diocese’ so it often happens that someone will call for a certificate of baptism and I have to refer them to the Military Ordinariate (diocese) two thousand miles away.

The native parish had a fire in the early 80s and all the registers were destroyed. Luckily, two of the early priests had kept personal registers which were still in existence so we have photocopies of those registers but are still missing documentation from 1946-1953 and from 1964 to the mid 1980s.

In response to that, the diocese implemented a policy whereby, at the beginning of the year, we photocopy the entries from the year before and forward them to the diocesan archives. That would prevent the total loss of documents should there be a fire or a natural disaster.

Always a good idea to have some form of backup of any record. It must be a very time-consuming job to have to photocopy all those records, even if it’s only an annual job.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Wow. REALLY?

Curious. What if you were baptized Catholic-and this was against your parent’s wish? What if there was NO intention for you be be raised in the faith?
Just say the ex WAS baptized, but he never followed his faith? Why would his ex have to suffer for that?
Why would she have to even go through that mess at ALL? It was a*** civil union***. Whatever he did/believed prior shouldn’t have to affect her, I’d think.
Wow. Just…wow.
Makes no sense to me, but…hey.

That is why you do not rush into marriage. you take your time and you find out everthing you can before hand.

But just to clarify if one party is batized catholic and they enter into a civil “marriage” then it is not a valid marriage because the catholic is bond by cannon law.

 

[Phemie]

But just to clarify if one party is baptized catholic and they enter into a civil “marriage” then it is not a valid marriage because the catholic is bound by canon law.

Unless the Catholic petitioned his/her bishop for a dispensation to marry outside the Church. One member of our parish married in his parents’ garden. He married an Anglican girl, petitioned for a dispensation from canonical form to have an Anglican priest friend of his fiancée’s family officiate at the ceremony. Once the dispensation was granted the couple was free to marry anywhere they wanted. They could also have received a dispensation to marry in a civil ceremony if a judge had been a friend of the family.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Unless the Catholic petitioned his/her bishop for a dispensation to marry outside the Church. One member of our parish married in his parents’ garden. He married an Anglican girl, petitioned for a dispensation from canonical form to have an Anglican priest friend of his fiancée’s family officiate at the ceremony. Once the dispensation was granted the couple was free to marry anywhere they wanted. They could also have received a dispensation to marry in a civil ceremony if a judge had been a friend of the family.

This is correct.

 

[laszlo]

You must understand the reality. The Church has no right, neither means to investigate the record of your ex. Baptisms are recorded only at the parishes. There are 195 dioceses and over 20,000 parishes in the US.

The truth is that if your ex was baptized as Catholic then your marriage outside of the Church is invalid; otherwise your marriage is valid and you need annulment

I suppose a private investigator can approach him or his relatives and get the information. If you know where and when your ex was born one can search the appropriate local parishes for baptism certification.