If it wasn't wrong

[CuriousInIL]

I often finding myself thinking about what I would do if certain things were not wrong. For example, if it wasn’t wrong to steal, know what I would steal. Also, if it wasn’t wrong, I know what I would lie about, who I would hit, etc.
Are these thought sinful in and of themselves? I realize the underlying acts are wrong and would never do them for at least that reason, but the mind wanders to these “what ifs.”

 

[puzzleannie]

I think that is a natural human tendency, a result of original sin, used to be called concupiscence, the urge to choose the wrong thing. I don’t no if OP means “I would do it if it was not forbidden by moral or civil law” or “I would do it if it was not wrong”, because I don’t know what “wrong” means in context of OP. Many of us have a tendency to break a civil law, especially against something we consider harmless, or a matter of personal choice, just because it is a law: people who smoke in no-smoking areas, refuse to wear seatbelts, jay-walk, smoke pot etc. There seems to be a somewhat childish urge to break a law whenever it is possible and the possibility of retribution is slight.

If you are asking if such actions are sinful, that would be judged in relation to the usual conditions for sin: is it grave matter, does the person know the matter is grave, is the action or willful entertainment of the plan for the action, deliberate and informed.

If a person habitually breaks minor laws and moral commandments in an attitude of pride and general disobedience for authority, that probably would be sinful (against the 4th commandment), at least venially, depending on the matter.

If a person deliberately breaks civil laws that in his opinion go against God-given universal moral law, that is another matter entirely.

 

[CuriousInIL]

By not wrong I mean not sinful and, where the act is currently illegal–such as stealing, that it is not illegal.

And, if I was not clear, I do not do these things because they are sinful (and in some cases illegal). The question is: Is it sinful to think about this enough that I know–for example–what I would steal if stealing was both not sinful and not illegal?

Is merely thinking about this sinful? I have no intent to do the underlying acts at least in part because I know they will remain sinful (and some illegal).

 

[gardenswithkids]

Is merely thinking about this sinful? I have no intent to do the underlying acts at least in part because I know they will remain sinful (and some illegal).

Think about it in the sense that this demonstrates the need we all have to form our consciences properly and also show why civil laws need to keep with the moral order. Plain and simple: if we think a behavior is neither sinful nor illegal, we will more likely perform that behavior.

As to your personal focuss on this, it shows where your attachments are. If those are the only reason why you don’t steal, you like possessions and you like yourself better than others. Those are faults many share. Being aware of our faults and weaknesses helps us avoid sins connected to them.

 

[hasikelee]

Maybe this is a signal that you need to develop more understanding in these things. For example, hitting is a sin, but it also has many other consequences.

If hitting wasn’t a sin, it could still be wrong to hit for many other reasons. Natural law and spiritual law might align with eachother, but negating one doesn’t negate the other.

 

[CuriousInIL]

Maybe this is a signal that you need to develop more understanding in these things. For example, hitting is a sin, but it also has many other consequences.

If hitting wasn’t a sin, it could still be wrong to hit for many other reasons. Natural law and spiritual law might align with eachother, but negating one doesn’t negate the other.

Perhaps true, but unresponsive to my question.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I often finding myself thinking about what I would do if certain things were not wrong. For example, if it wasn’t wrong to steal, know what I would steal. Also, if it wasn’t wrong, I know what I would lie about, who I would hit, etc.
Are these thought sinful in and of themselves? I realize the underlying acts are wrong and would never do them for at least that reason, but the mind wanders to these “what ifs.”

• For the thought of a sin to come into the mind is not a sin
• To fail to take proper precautions against its coming when that coming was prudently foreseeable, is a sin
• To be conscious of the presence of the thought, is not a sin
• To dwell on the thought with enjoyment of what the bad action or bad notion is about, is a sin. This approval is the “morose delectation” of the older manuals of moral theology
• To receive the thought into one’s mind with approval is a sin
• To consider doing it, is a sin.
• To want to do it, is a sin
• To form the intention of doing it, is a sin
• To attempt doing it, is a sin
• To do it, is a sin
• Not to repent of, & be contrite for, it, is a sin (& a very odd one; we can be that only if God gives us grace to do so; yet we are obliged to do so)
  To consider theft or genocide or some other sin abstractly, as a moralist does, is not a sin - it is important to be able to understand why sin is sinful, & in what circumstances they are, & so forth - theft is theft, whether one is a parish priest or a ten-year old: one wouldn’t give the same advice or penance to a priest who embezzles $ 20,000 as to a ten-year old who has stolen a comic book to give as present to someone.

Someone somewhere in the Church has to analyse theft, & to consider its causes, effects, anatomy, and the like - that is how the Church grows in wisdom so as to judge sins in the confessional. If alcoholism (say) is a disease rather than a purely sinful thing, it is important for moral theology to integrate this into what it already knows. Then it will be that bit easier for the Church to preach the Gospel of God’s forgiveness in her confessional practice.

Talk of specific sins can be sinful if it can be prudently foreseen that those following what is said might be tempted to commit them - such talk would be giving scandal, which in such circumstances would be sinful; which is why there are warnings on this site about discussing certain issues which cause people trouble. The WWW is an occasion of many sins ##

 

[CuriousInIL]

Again, the point here is not that I contemplate these acts as possible acts that are sinful. The question is whether entertaining the thought of what if they were NOT sinful or otherwise wrong. Perhaps analogous to the old, if money were no object type question.

 

[blackrobe]

Again, the point here is not that I contemplate these acts as possible acts that are sinful. The question is whether entertaining the thought of what if they were NOT sinful or otherwise wrong. Perhaps analogous to the old, if money were no object type question.

OK, the answer is . . . it depends. No question about personal sin, even in the abstract, yields to a one-word answer.

JSA

 

[CuriousInIL]

OK, the answer is . . . it depends. No question about personal sin, even in the abstract, yields to a one-word answer.

JSA

If somehow I suggested that I wanted a one-word answer, I would like to correct that misapprehension. I understand the complex nature of the question. That said, What are some of the factors upon which it depends?

 

[blackrobe]

If somehow I suggested that I wanted a one-word answer, I would like to correct that misapprehension. I understand the complex nature of the question. That said, What are some of the factors upon which it depends?

Well, what makes something sinful is that it is a transgression of the moral law. The moral law is made known to us in two ways: its fundamentals are written on our hearts. This is conscience which is a gift from God which must be developed as we mature and encounter ever more complex situations.

The moral law is also given to us through revelation, unfolding across history and culminating in the person of Jesus Christ who is the perfect revelation of Truth, including the moral law. In practical terms that means we must study revelation in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

For a Catholic that also means abiding by the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church which is given the authority to interpret Scripture and Tradition. One way to go about this is to consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Another is to consult with a competent authority. **In your case, if you are Catholic, you should take your question to a priest in confession.
**
Some personal advice: examine your inward disposition. Do you have some misgivings about the morality of the act you are contemplating? If so, that is good evidence of moral danger and possible sin. If it feels wrong, it probably is.

If you are actually contemplating what you describe, ask yourself whether you are merely using the hypothetical as an excuse to do something that would otherwise be sinful, e.g. take pleasure in thoughts of sinful actions.

JSA

Bottom line, sin cannnot be evaluated in the abstract or for hypothetical cases

 

[BLB_Oregon]

If you never want to do it, don’t sit around mulling it over. Think on profitable things, instead.

It is a bad idea to sit around thinking what you’d like to take, what you’d like to lie about, or who you’d like to wallop. The desire to evade loving others should always be avoided. If it cannot be avoided, then the reason behind it needs to be confronted. Why on earth, you might think, would I want to be able to steal, lie, and harm others? Why don’t I want to love people at every opportunity? That is worth wondering about.

Think of the difference that would be made if people were good for the sake of being good, even if they were not to be punished if they were bad. Desire to be someone who would want that. Even the desire to desire to do good for its own sake is a good desire.

Hang in there. Nearly all of us are assaulted by this kind of temptation. Meet it well, and it will be the fire that removes the dross.

 

[CRW]

I often finding myself thinking about what I would do if certain things were not wrong. For example, if it wasn’t wrong to steal, know what I would steal. Also, if it wasn’t wrong, I know what I would lie about, who I would hit, etc.
Are these thought sinful in and of themselves? I realize the underlying acts are wrong and would never do them for at least that reason, but the mind wanders to these “what ifs.”

The first thing that came to me was when Jesus stated that to look at a woman with lust is commiting adultery in the heart. I would say that if you know that it could provide you a means to sin, try to avoid the thought process. Say a short prayer,

 

[CuriousInIL]

The first thing that came to me was when Jesus stated that to look at a woman with lust is committing adultery in the heart. I would say that if you know that it could provide you a means to sin, try to avoid the thought process. Say a short prayer,

Indeed, I intentionally avoided the lust issue because I think it can confuse what I am asking.
And, apparently, I am doing a very poor job of asking.
These thoughts are not leading me to do the underlying acts, so I see no means to sin. It really is, perhaps, more straightforward than that.
Let’s try one very specific example: Is it a sin to think, wonder, muse, etc. about what you might do and how you might react if the moral law was different and it was not sin to take–let’s say–less than one dollar whenever and wherever you see it even though you know it is not yours? Note, I know that the moral law is not this way, that it will not change this way, and I have no desire to go out and collect this change and these thoughts do not lead me to do so. Yet, I wonder and think, how would I act in this hypothetical situation,

 

[CRW]

Indeed, I intentionally avoided the lust issue because I think it can confuse what I am asking.
And, apparently, I am doing a very poor job of asking.
These thoughts are not leading me to do the underlying acts, so I see no means to sin. It really is, perhaps, more straightforward than that.
Let’s try one very specific example: Is it a sin to think, wonder, muse, etc. about what you might do and how you might react if the moral law was different and it was not sin to take–let’s say–less than one dollar whenever and wherever you see it even though you know it is not yours? Note, I know that the moral law is not this way, that it will not change this way, and I have no desire to go out and collect this change and these thoughts do not lead me to do so. Yet, I wonder and think, how would I act in this hypothetical situation,

My post was not implying that lust was at the heart of the issue. I attempted to illustrate a point that avoiding the occasion of sin by thoughts, if possible, is preferable then to entertain the thoughts. Jesus was saying that we need not participate in the actual sin; to sin. If we allow ourselves to be obsessed or preoccupied by sinful thoughts, the path to actual sin may not be far away.

 

[hasikelee]

Perhaps true, but unresponsive to my question.

Sorry, I honestly was trying to answer. You wonder if thinking these things is sinful. I answered that perhaps this is a sign that you are at a developmental stage.

For example, you can have a $20 bill lying on the table, one person will steal it, one person will steal it and feel guilty, one person will reallly badly want to steal it, one person will think about it but decide not to out of fear, one person will think about it and decide not to out of understanding law, one person will think about it and decide not to out of love, one person will never think about it.

See a pathway to clarity and sainthood? To freedom from wrongful desires? Everyone is moving on this pathway and making choices. Your thoughts seem to be a sign that you are ready to make some choices and gain some understanding.

 

[AndyF]

CuriousInIL:

see: newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

…"An inefficacious desire is one that carries a condition, in such a way that the will is prepared to perform the action in case the condition were verified. When the condition is such as to eliminate all sinfulness from the action, the desire involves no sin: e.g. I would gladly eat meat on Friday, if I had a dispensation; and in general this is the case whenever the action is forbidden by positive law only.

…If, on the other hand, the condition does not remove the sinfulness of the action, the desire is also sinful. This is clearly the case where the action is intrinsically and absolutely evil, e.g. blasphemy: one cannot without committing sin, have the desire – “I would blaspheme God if it were not wrong”; the condition is an impossible one and therefore does not affect the desire itself. The pleasure taken in a sinful thought (delectatio, gaudium) is, generally speaking, a sin of the same kind and gravity as the action which is thought of. Much…"

AndyF

 

[Katie1723]

… Yet, I wonder and think, how would I act in this hypothetical situation,

Personally, I think there are many of us here( myself included) who have at one time or another indulged in a "what if " scenario. Some of us just don’t admit it because of how “it makes us look”. I would beg to differ with anyone who said “I would never…” Never say never. We are human and some times these thoughts just appear unbidden in our minds. I try not to place too much stock in them when they do.
Kathy

 

[CuriousInIL]

CuriousInIL:

see: newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

…"An inefficacious desire is one that carries a condition, in such a way that the will is prepared to perform the action in case the condition were verified. When the condition is such as to eliminate all sinfulness from the action, the desire involves no sin: e.g. I would gladly eat meat on Friday, if I had a dispensation; and in general this is the case whenever the action is forbidden by positive law only.

…If, on the other hand, the condition does not remove the sinfulness of the action, the desire is also sinful. This is clearly the case where the action is intrinsically and absolutely evil, e.g. blasphemy: one cannot without committing sin, have the desire – “I would blaspheme God if it were not wrong”; the condition is an impossible one and therefore does not affect the desire itself. The pleasure taken in a sinful thought (delectatio, gaudium) is, generally speaking, a sin of the same kind and gravity as the action which is thought of. Much…"

AndyF

Thank you. That is extremely helpful!