"If" Jesus had blood brothers & sisters, then...

[fbl9]

Degradeing the womb of Mary? In no way would it do that. God intended for a husband and wife to have relations to have children. Its not a sin to be with your wife in a sexual way. That is God’s intent. Being her husband would make him worthy. He was worthy enough to raise God’s son but not worthy enough to have a normal relationship with his wife. Are you for real?

How is it a lack of reverence for her to have other children?

You desire to place that which is infected with sin in the same place your God was formed. you should try reality.
do not place words that are not there never did i say it was sin for any ordinary sin infected spouses to have marital relations
missed “normal relationship”…describe normal,
do you think that not to have children isn’t normal?

 

[adrift]

I have stated that according to Jewish law if the older brother is acting in a so called crazy way his younger sibblings have the right to talk to him in such a manner.

I have acknowledged what you have said I did not many times here on the CAF.

Ya know you have said the same thing over and over again about me and we have gone round and round about this. It is boring. Come up with something other that the same old junk.

This is not Jewish law try again. Would you point out where I have said the same thing about you? I think you should follow your advise and come up with something other than your “old junk”

 

[rev_kevin]

This is not Jewish law try again. Would you point out where I have said the same thing about you? I think you should follow your advise and come up with something other than your “old junk”

Yes it is. You are wrong again.
If you don’t like what I post then don’t read it!
Everyone here says the same thing over and over again including you.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus had blood brothers and sisters plain and simple.
To suggest otherwise is rediculious.

If you choose not to believe it then so be it but I believe he had sibblings because Scripture mentions them several times.

That’s good rev kev! Dig in your heels. Wave away the integrity of scripture like you are swatting at a fly! Don’t pay any attention to the other verses that shed light upon these relationships! Put your blinders on, and block out history and Scritpural perspicacity!

Tell all those Apostolic Churches that have never changed their doctrine in 2000 years that they are wrong becuase they are “rediculious”.

You are a credit to your reverendship, and your denomination.

 

[rev_kevin]

That’s good rev kev! Dig in your heels. Wave away the integrity of scripture like you are swatting at a fly! Don’t pay any attention to the other verses that shed light upon these relationships! Put your blinders on, and block out history and Scritpural perspicacity!

Tell all those Apostolic Churches that have never changed their doctrine in 2000 years that they are wrong becuase they are “rediculious”.

You are a credit to your reverendship, and your denomination.

Thank you and I will. You are wrong.
Happy now?

 

[guanophore]

It is annoying that the same thing is stated over an over again without acknowledging that the points made have been refuted, ignored and discarded. They are never acknowledged.

Rev Kev states Jesus has blood brothers without acknowledging what he has been told that brother had many connotations in the Bible. He has been told before that scripture shows that according to the culture they brothers must have been older to talk to Jesus as they did. There is never a rebuttal but a restatement of his beliefs with no acknowledgment that his beliefs have been refuted.

Do not trouble yourself adrift. According to the stats, there are 7 times more “lurkers” reading this thread than there are posters. No doubt the facts have reached out to most of them, and perhaps they are more willing to embrace Truth than our beloved brother here. It is patently obvious to all reading that he is ducking the scholarship, and refusing to accept the Scriptural references that refute his position. It is also clear that it is essential that he do this, because if he were to accept that the Catholic Church is right, big changes would be necessary.

I have stated that according to Jewish law if the older brother is acting in a so called crazy way his younger sibblings have the right to talk to him in such a manner.

Please do provide us with a reference, rev kev.

 

[guanophore]

You are blind.

Careful, rev kev, you are getting into uncharitable.

Have you decided you are finished here at CAF? If so, you can leave courteously. You don’t need to get banned for violation of the forum rules.

How so?

Any departure from the One Faith handed down to us from the Apostles would be a heresy.

Yes it is. You are wrong again.
If you don’t like what I post then don’t read it!
Everyone here says the same thing over and over again including you.

The forum is for debate, kev. You don’t have debate by ignoring the posts. We have presented you with evidence, and you are ignoring it. If you do not wish to have a meaningful dialogue, why are you here?

Thank you and I will. You are wrong.
Happy now?

You are not a credit to your reverendship, and denomination? No, I am never happy about being wrong.

 

[rev_kevin]

guanophore;7824459]Careful, rev kev, you are getting into uncharitable.

Have you decided you are finished here at CAF? If so, you can leave courteously. You don’t need to get banned for violation of the forum rules.

I have said nothing here that Catholics have not told me. For example I have blinders on. I’m blind to the truth and many uncharitable things, but its seems to be ok for them to say such things but not me. Hmm seems kind of one way.

Any departure from the One Faith handed down to us from the Apostles would be a heresy.

I follow Christ and only Christ not man.

The forum is for debate, kev. You don’t have debate by ignoring the posts. We have presented you with evidence, and you are ignoring it. If you do not wish to have a meaningful dialogue, why are you here?

I have debated and want meaningful dialogue but when I do I get rude comments by some Catholics here and nothing is said to them but if I make a comment all he-- breaks loose.
Ya’ll must remember we are of different beliefs and we should accept that and have a nice meaningful dialogue but some seem to want to do the opposite. Which puts me on the definsive.

You are not a credit to your reverendship, and denomination?

I have many who will say different but then you have never heard me preach so you don’t know what I discuss and it is nothing that is discussed here, I preach of the goodness of God and Jesus. I preach how we should treat our follow mankind. I preach love your neighbor. But you wouldn’t know that. So yes I am a credit to my reverendship and denomination.

 

[ForeverGrace]

Perhaps they were siblings. Perhaps not.

Whoever they were, they weren’t children of Mary.

[SIGN1]There is no Bible verse that describes anyone as the “son of Mary”, except Jesus.[/SIGN1]

Really??? Please provide the scripture to support your claim. You do know that many of the church fathers did not believe in the sinlessness of Mary, yes?

 

[ClamDigger]

I have said nothing here that Catholics have not told me. For example I have blinders on. I’m blind to the truth and many uncharitable things, but its seems to be ok for them to say such things but not me. Hmm seems kind of one way.

Well, you do have blinders on. I know this based on the way that you refuse to acknowledge our evidence for Mary’s continued virginity in this forum:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=516831

I follow Christ and only Christ not man.

So then you must not believe the Apostles’ interpretation of Jesus in the Gospels and the Epistles, right? Since these were written down by men?

I have debated and want meaningful dialogue but when I do I get rude comments by some Catholics here and nothing is said to them but if I make a comment all he-- breaks loose.
Ya’ll must remember we are of different beliefs and we should accept that and have a nice meaningful dialogue but some seem to want to do the opposite. Which puts me on the definsive.

You put us on the defensive when you try to say that Christ’s Virgin Mother allowed her womb (the place of Christ’s miraculous, virginal conception) to be defiled. You might as well be saying that Mary threw garbage into the Holy Sepulchre, defiling the place where the miracle of the Resurrection took place.

I have many who will say different but then you have never heard me preach so you don’t know what I discuss and it is nothing that is discussed here, I preach of the goodness of God and Jesus. I preach how we should treat our follow mankind. I preach love your neighbor. But you wouldn’t know that. So yes I am a credit to my reverendship and denomination.

But we heave heard you preach. You have preached against the virginity of Christ’s mother. You have no problem making baseless assertions against Christ’s mother, so why don’t you tell us why you preach what you preach? Show us your evidence.

 

[ForeverGrace]

The Early Church Fathers on
Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

The Protoevangelium of James

Sorry, been there, done that, got the T-shirt to prove it. Any scripture to support your assertion?

 

[ClamDigger]

Really??? Please provide the scripture to support your claim.

How can we provide a Scripture verse that no one in Scripture is called a son of the mother of Jesus if there is no such verse? That makes no sense. How about you provide a verse where Mary is ever called the mother of anyone but Jesus, or where anyone is ever called the child of Mary but Jesus.

You do know that many of the church fathers did not believe in the sinlessness of Mary, yes?

Really? Which Church Fathers said that Mary sinned? And where?

 

[ClamDigger]

Sorry, been there, done that, got the T-shirt to prove it. Any scripture to support your assertion?

Yes. Why did Jesus entrust Mary to St. John’s care in John 19 if Mary had other sons? Why did the betrothed Mary ask the angel in Luke 1 how she would conceive a child in the future if she had not intended to remain a virgin even after her marriage? Why is Mary never called the mother of anyone but Jesus in the entire Scripture? Why is no one ever called the son of Mary but Jesus in the entire Scripture?

 

[rev_kevin]

ClamDigger;7824562]Well, you do have blinders on. I know this based on the way that you refuse to acknowledge our evidence for Mary’s continued virginity in this forum:

You have just made my point. Just because I don’t believe what you do I automaticly have blinders on.

So then you must not believe the Apostles’ interpretation of Jesus in the Gospels and the Epistles, right? Since these were written down by men?

Written by man through the guidance of the HS.

You put us on the defensive when you try to say that Christ’s Virgin Mother allowed her womb (the place of Christ’s miraculous, virginal conception) to be defiled. You might as well be saying that Mary threw garbage into the Holy Sepulchre, defiling the place where the miracle of the Resurrection took place.

Something that God gave a husband and wife to share is now something bad. Where does it say that marital relations between a husband and wife is bad? Where does it say that it is defiling her womb. It don’t say that in the Bible.

But we heave heard you preach.

This is not preaching. You must not know the difference. Oh but then you don’t have preaching in the CC.

You have preached against the virginity of Christ’s mother.

Once again I’m not preaching. Learn the difference between preaching and discussion.

You have no problem making baseless assertions against Christ’s mother, so why don’t you tell us why you preach what you preach?

I preach of the goodness of God and Jesus. I preach how we should treat our follow mankind. I preach love your neighbor. But I guess you failed to read that part,

Show us your evidence.

I have but you will not accept it because its is not what you believe.

 

[ClamDigger]

You have just made my point. Just because I don’t believe what you do I automaticly have blinders on.

No, you have blinders on because you refuse to accept any evidence that we have shown you while holding on to your belief which has no evidence.

Written by man through the guidance of the HS.

So then you agree that there were oral traditions passed on that were not recorded in Holy Scripture?
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.” --2 Thessalonians 2.15

And that people who read the Bible without guidance don’t understand what they are reading?
“And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.” --Acts 8.30-31

Something that God gave a husband and wife to share is now something bad. Where does it say that marital relations between a husband and wife is bad? Where does it say that it is defiling her womb. It don’t say that in the Bible.

It’s not bad for a normal husband and wife to have sex. But Mary and Joseph were not a normal husband and wife. Mary and Joseph were chosen God to be the parents of Christ. Mary was chosen by God to contain the Word, the Way, the Truth, and the Life in her womb. For her to have sex would be for her to defile the very place where the Word was contained. That is, unless you think that sexual fluids are some kind of purifying agent?

This is not preaching. You must not know the difference.

How is that not preaching? Interpreting God’s word is always preaching.

Oh but then you don’t have preaching in the CC.

What do you even mean by that? What, because we don’t go door to door and go onto non-Catholic forums proselytizing we don’t preach?

Once again I’m not preaching. Learn the difference between preaching and discussion.

You’re not discussing because you are not open to what anyone else is saying. You are preaching.

I preach of the goodness of God and Jesus. I preach how we should treat our follow mankind. I preach love your neighbor. But I guess you failed to read that part,

You also preach that Mary defiled the Ark of the New Covenant.

I have but you will not accept it because its is not what you believe.

No, you haven’t. Where have you proven anything? Please, copy and paste your posts that provide evidence for Mary ever losing her virginity, because I have seen you prove nothing. Maybe I’ve missed something that you would like to show me?

 

[rev_kevin]

Yes. Why did Jesus entrust Mary to St. John’s care in John 19 if Mary had other sons? Why did the betrothed Mary ask the angel in Luke 1 how she would conceive a child in the future if she had not intended to remain a virgin even after her marriage? Why is Mary never called the mother of anyone but Jesus in the entire Scripture? Why is no one ever called the son of Mary but Jesus in the entire Scripture?

Matthew 12:46-50

“As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers were outside, wanting to talk to him. Someone told Jesus, Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you.
Jesus asked, Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?
Then he pointed to his disciples and said, These are my mother and brothers. Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”

There is your answer to why Jesus entrusted John to take care of his mother.

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was asking how she would concieve a child in the future?

Jesus is the main focus not his brothers or sisters.

 

[ClamDigger]

Matthew 12:46-50

“As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers were outside, wanting to talk to him. Someone told Jesus, Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you.
Jesus asked, Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?
Then he pointed to his disciples and said, These are my mother and brothers. Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”

There is your answer to why Jesus entrusted John to take care of his mother.

… What? Am I missing something? How does this passage disprove Mary’s virginity or prove that Jesus has biological siblings?

Where in the Bible does it say that Mary was asking how she would concieve a child in the future?

“Thou SHALT conceive in thy womb and bear a son.” It does not say, “You have already conceived in your womb and are bearing a son.” What the angel declares is set in the future, not in the present. Any engaged woman, of even below-average intelligence, would not wonder how she will conceive a child in the future if she intended to have normal sexual relations. The betrothed Mary’s question, “How shall this be done? As I know not man?” only makes sense if she intended to remain a virgin even after her marriage.

Jesus is the main focus not his brothers or sisters.

So it can’t say who Mary’s other (supposed) children are because Jesus is the main focus?

 

[PRmerger]

Really??? Please provide the scripture to support your claim.

LO!.

Ok. Here’s the Scripture verses that describe anyone *else *as a “son of Mary”

Ummm…I searched the Scriptures and found NOT A ONE.

Did you find any?

You do know that many of the church fathers did not believe in the sinlessness of Mary, yes?

Please cite your sources.

 

[PLAT]

Really??? Please provide the scripture to support your claim. You do know that many of the church fathers did not believe in the sinlessness of Mary, yes?

facepalm

not established =/= not believe

and btw

not believe =/= oppose

And “many” is a vague term. Use words like, “minority”, “majority”, or specific person please.

Did Mary have sex? no
Did Mary recieve the holy blessing like she recieved Jesus as her baby? no, no one but Jesus
Did Mary live in the same room as Jeseph? no
If you imply Mary has other sons and daughters, are you suggesting she is a *****? I don’t know. I don’t think God wants a ***** to be the mother of Jesus though.

 

[Rightlydivide]

WRONG! The James argument is as old as dirt. Show me where scripture states James’ mother is Mary? The term brother/brethen is also another debunked issue.

And was Hegesippus writing the above to PROVE Mary had other children? To whom was he trying to convince James was Jesus blood brother?

Okay…and?

You said the ECF did not write about his brothers. They did.