Nicea325,“If” Jesus had blood brothers & sisters, then…I am curious why Jesus would not have made one them an Apostle? Why no slight detail of little bro’s and sisters by Jesus? No other NT folks (followers of Jesus) discuss them in detail or refer to them as followers? If Mary His Mother followed Jesus,how strange the NT writers make no mention of who took care of Jesus’ siblings?
No mention by the NT writers if they were jealous of Jesus or proud of big bro Jesus? Zilch…nada about them.No word by the ECF’s about their exact names, backgrounds or whereabouts? More important,if Jesus did indeed have blood brothers,strange he would leave the care of His mother to John?
So many unanswered questions about the so-called brothers and sisters of Jesus.
Rightly, YOU’re the one making all the claims about how the Church destroyed documents. Why should we believe you?You asked me to prove negative Nicea.
Clear it up for us and show us the earliest writings stating that Mary definitely had other children.Okay, so lets be accurate. The Catholic view is the early church was not on top of things enough to know that John wrote Revelation, Peter wrote 2nd Peter, John wrote 2 and 3rd John, thought other books like Shepherd of Hermes were inspired but mained all accurate knowledge about the virginity of Mary…just trying to be clear here.
Well…they said Jude was his brother humanly speaking. He also distinguised between kinsmen and brothers. But I have provided those already.Show us the first writings, on record, stating Mary definitely had other children.
The Bible is clear on Jesus family? Really? Where in scripture does it state Mary gave birth to other children? How strange the NT writers do not even give details about them or ECF’s. How many brothers did he have? How many sisters? Who took care of them while Mary walked with Jesus’ eartly ministry? Which ones agreed w/Jesus? How many rejected Him? The Son of God had brothers and sisters yet they are rarely discussed or mentioned? What about after Jesus death? What happened to them? So on and so on.I do not claim they had other documents that supported Mary having other children. I believe the Bible is clear enough on the family of Jesus. I considere its origin to be scripture. Matthew, Mark, Paul make enough mentions that I have no reason to not believe that Christ’s family included brothers and sisters. I see no proof of a perpetual virginity; in fact the contrary. Scripture is enough to sustain my view whether or not anyone 800 years ago believed it. Truth is not determined by the number of people who adhere to it.
Exactly! Which begs the question:Truth is not determined by the number of people who adhere to it
We do not have any documents surviving that definitely state that and I never said we did. We have scripture and that is clear enough. We also have early legends contradicting later legends; another tell tell sign.Clear it up for us and show us the earliest writings stating that Mary definitely had other children.
You have been ‘overlooking’ that request several times now, even thought that is more specifically on topic than where you’re trying to take us.
Well, you’re not clear at all. You’re making all kinds of accusations and then trying to say, “Oh look, because I** say** the Church didn’t know John wrote Revelation then it couldn’t POSSIBLY have kept Mary’s perpetual virginity clear”.Okay, so lets be accurate. The Catholic view is the early church was not on top of things enough to know that John wrote Revelation, Peter wrote 2nd Peter, John wrote 2 and 3rd John, thought other books like Shepherd of Hermes were inspired but mained all accurate knowledge about the virginity of Mary…just trying to be clear here.
If the half brothers and sisters were sons and daughters of Joseph, from a prior marriage, there would be no DNA of Christ present.I also find the idea of Jesus having half brothers and half sisters very unsettling. That would mean that any one of us could be descendants of these half siblings and contain the same human DNA as Christ Himself. On a Spiritual level, it just seems very wrong.
Anna
Four brothers, several sisters. She travelled with them. She was outside with them…as you recall. They also would have been adult age more than likely.The Bible is clear on Jesus family? Really? Where in scripture does it state Mary gave birth to other children? How strange the NT writers do not even give slight information about them or ECF’s. How many brothers did he have? How many sisters? Who took care of them while Mary walked with Jesus’ eartly ministry?
And I see no proof of Mary having more children,if so show us where? Scripture can sustain anyone’s view about anything they wish.
Exactly! Which begs the question:
Then how is it determined or what measures are used? The Bible-Alone? Partially,not strictly the Bible.
Where are the first writings, of truth or legend, stating Mary definitely had other children? It’s not definite in scriptures, so your belief has to be recorded somewhere.We do not have any documents surviving that definitely state that and I never said we did. We have scripture and that is clear enough. We also have early legends contradicting later legends; another tell tell sign.
So okay, show us the SCRIPTURE that definitely, positively, says that Mary (mother of Jesus) is the mother of ANYBODY OTHER THAN JESUS.We do not have any documents surviving that definitely state that and I never said we did. We have scripture and that is clear enough. We also have early legends contradicting later legends; another tell tell sign.
I am not trying to wiggle at all. Whether Mary was a Virgin or not, while an interesting debate, does not really have to much importance in my view. I just seem to get a lot of feedback when I do share my view!Well, you’re not clear at all. You’re making all kinds of accusations and then trying to say, “Oh look, because I** say** the Church didn’t know John wrote Revelation then it couldn’t POSSIBLY have kept Mary’s perpetual virginity clear”.
Basically you are trying desperately to wiggle out of your own statement when you were shown to be in error.
Really. How come all those ‘four brothers’ have been shown to be the children of a woman OTHER THAN MARY, mother of JESUS? Show us one verse that says that MARY, mother of Jesus, was 'mother of several daughters".Four brothers, several sisters. She travelled with them. She was outside with them…as you recall. They also would have been adult age more than likely.
It does not. That is why there is so much argument and it is controversial…which I said about a hundred posts ago. It is inferred based upon the context. In a clear enough way, that I believe it sustains my view quite well.So okay, show us the SCRIPTURE that definitely, positively, says that Mary (mother of Jesus) is the mother of ANYBODY OTHER THAN JESUS.
They have not. That view conflates unlike people, has grown men with different mothers travelling with Mary, have the crowds putting them together as a family unit and leaving out their parents and many other flaws. That is why the early church would not have supported that view, instead adopting a half brother theory as the legends grew.Really. How come all those ‘four brothers’ have been shown to be the children of a woman OTHER THAN MARY, mother of JESUS? Show us one verse that says that MARY, mother of Jesus, was 'mother of several daughters".
Okay,then show us where the Bible clearly states Mary gave birth to four brothers and several sisters? That is not what you have answered. The problem is that you read brothers and until and automatically assume she had other children. Remember,we are dealing with Jewish culture,not 21st century westerners.Four brothers, several sisters. She travelled with them. She was outside with them…as you recall. They also would have been adult age more than likely.
Your interpretation sustains your view, not to mention your linguistic abilities and cultural understanding of those times.It does not. That is why there is so much argument and it is controversial…which I said about a hundred posts ago. It is inferred based upon the context. In a clear enough way, that I believe it sustains my view quite well.
It does not state she gave birth to them. Isnt that the same question worded differently I just answered?Okay,then show us where the Bible clearly states Mary gave birth to four brothers and several sisters? That is not what you have answered. The problem is that you read brothers and until and automatically assume she had other children. Remember,we are dealing with Jewish culture,not 21st century westerners.
You have the earliest Christian historian saying that Jude was his brother humanly speaking. You also have him using the word kinsmen, ie cousin in regard to another family member. I have stated my view about time passing, the legends developing (via Joseph to the cousin theory) and other things.Your interpretation sustains your view, not to mention your linguistic abilities and cultural understanding of those times.
Since you ‘can’t’ produce any writings, besides your own, stating Mary definitely had other children, show us the documentation of the suppression of the belief, no matter what era it’s from.