If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?

[CatholicKnight3]

We certainly believe it was Catholics he was writing to in the Church at Smyrna, not saying that all there believed alike though, some evidently were taking more of a figurative stance on the Eucharist. This was the reason for his letter, to set straight the teaching that the Eucharist “is” the flesh and blood of Our Lord. The flesh that died on the cross is the same flesh that we partake of in the Eucharist. Like others have said and have quoted ECF’s, the early Church taught the literal interpretation of Jesus words, nothing from John 6:51 and onward indicates Jesus was speaking figuratively at all.

True. Plus as I mentioned in another post, Christ emphasized His BODY and HIS BLOOD more each time he brought it up in the Gospel.

Each time Christ ever spoke in parables, He later explained the parables and the symbols that was represented. It should be noted that when Peter looked at Christ (indicating that he too was having hard time accepting what Christ was saying), Christ did not make him feel “comfortable” by turning down the heat of what He was proclaiming. In fact, Christ turns up the heat even more when he says to Peter, “Are you going to leave too?”

Christ never backs down from the claim. Never goes into “clarification.”

John 6:65
64"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, **“You do not want to go away also, do you?” **

 

[JMM1957]

True. Plus as I mentioned in another post, Christ emphasized His BODY and HIS BLOOD more each time he brought it up in the Gospel.

Each time Christ ever spoke in parables, He later explained the parables and the symbols that was represented. It should be noted that when Peter looked at Christ (indicating that he too was having hard time accepting what Christ was saying), Christ did not make him feel “comfortable” by turning down the heat of what He was proclaiming. In fact, Christ turns up the heat even more when he says to Peter, “Are you going to leave too?”

Christ never backs down from the claim. Never goes into “clarification.”

John 6:65
64"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, **“You do not want to go away also, do you?” **

Yes, Jesus kept the pressure on and didn’t back off with it, even when some left. The disciples who stayed, certainly already believed in who Jesus was, as Peter confessed in verse 68. Jesus was putting forth a new teaching here, one that was not heard of before by the disciples. I don’t doubt it was a “hard saying” for all of them to hear. Jesus was challenging the ones who stayed by saying “are you going to leave also?”, in other words, I’m not going to explain this teaching (the Eucharist) any further right now, or soften it up, or explain it in a simpler way, as in some of the parables he told. No, Jesus wanted to bring them to the point of “take it or leave it.” The point of this was not to get them to accept something figuratively, but can only be literal, faith in this “hard saying.”

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ’s stripes heal all those who seek Him.

But one does not realize the great and tangible effect of the sacraments and their healing power…as well as the great experience of being in communion…which is being addressed so profoundly right now by Pope Francis here in America.

 

[benhur]

I am sure he is writing to Catholics, warning them about heretics. Ben, is it enough to just believe in the Incarnation?

Ok He is writing to Catholics and in said quotes was referring to Gnostics ?

 

[Duane1966]

Ok He is writing to Catholics and in said quotes was referring to Gnostics ?

Yes, or heretics of a stripe. The Gnostics believed they had secret knowledge.

 

[benhur]

Hey Ben, it becomes a matter for Him to know. Yes, I hope you are accepting much of His life. His life is many choices. Our time is always here…
Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.**The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

Participating in His Eucharist is what we are compelled to do. The father draws us, and we eat of the one who bring together God’s lost flock. In Him we are found. He is the narrow gate, not like many wide open communions, but one that is set with His seal and flesh and blood. Participating in His Eucharist is accepting His sacrifice for what we could not accomplish, while at the same time accepting His suffering in our lives, because that’s what will happen if His life is in us.

“We are heirs of God, provided we suffer with Him.”

Yes, I believe you may have life. And I also believe that I should not condone an invalid or proper communion from the whole and true body.

Ok .pretty good and charitable
Blessings

 

[benhur]

Benhur -

Yet we can read the writings of the Church through time, no one differing on whether it was literal or figurative only. Not until the 16th c., did men believe otherwise, disagreeing with the Church.

And this One Faith on the Eucharist was throughout the world:

• Spain
• Italy
• Turkey
• Jerusalem
• India

Writings include an early Bishop, Theodore of Mopsuestia. He seems to be writing to 21st century protestants:

"He did not say, 'This is the symbol of My Body, and this, of My Blood,’ but, what is set before us, but that it is transformed by means of the Eucharistic action into Flesh and Blood." Theodore of Mopsuestia, Commentary on Matthew 26:26 (ante A.D. 428).

Hi P

I have stated before one does not always qualify figurative speech. That is the beauty of it . It is understood , with minimum of use words.

Some fathers held figurative, some literal some both.Reformers did not reinvent the wheel ,and also studied fathers .

Blessings

 

[benhur]

We certainly believe it was Catholics he was writing to in the Church at Smyrna, not saying that all there believed alike though, some evidently were taking more of a figurative stance on the Eucharist. This was the reason for his letter, to set straight the teaching that the Eucharist “is” the flesh and blood of Our Lord. The flesh that died on the cross is the same flesh that we partake of in the Eucharist. Like others have said and have quoted ECF’s, the early Church taught the literal interpretation of Jesus words, nothing from John 6:51 and onward indicates Jesus was speaking figuratively at all.

Hi JMM,

Disagree that that was the purpose of the letter . The heresy was way beyond “communion” understanding. The heresies were held by folks that were called “Gnostics”.

Blessings

 

[Duane1966]

Hi P

I have stated before one does not always qualify figurative speech. That is the beauty of it . It is understood , with minimum of use words.

Some fathers held figurative, some literal some both.Reformers did not reinvent the wheel ,and also studied fathers .

Blessings

No fathers held figurative. I have seen a website that posted two fathers, but if you read those same two fathers other writings, it is clear that they held to literal. Tertullian was one that they quoted, but they did not read all of Tertullian.

 

[benhur]

Yes, or heretics of a stripe. The Gnostics believed they had secret knowledge.

Good. Thank you. Did they believe Christ died in the flesh ?

 

[benhur]

No fathers held figurative. I have seen a website that posted two fathers, but if you read those same two fathers other writings, it is clear that they held to literal. Tertullian was one that they quoted, but they did not read all of Tertullian.

Yes that goes both ways , about reading all writings, including retractions.

Bottom line is we genuinely and sincerely differ on plain scripture (well, maybe not so plain,purposely) so I am sure we, and others, will differ on early fathers discussing same scriptures.

Blessings

 

[Duane1966]

Good. Thank you. Did they believe Christ died in the flesh ?

They were all over the place on what they believed.

Thus many Gnostics denied the Incarnation, claiming that Christ only appeared to be a man, but that his humanity was an illusion. Some Gnostics, recognizing that the Old Testament taught that God created matter, claimed that the God of the Jews was an evil deity who was distinct from the New Testament God of Jesus Christ. They also proposed belief in many divine beings, known as “aeons,” who mediated between man and the ultimate, unreachable God. The lowest of these aeons, the one who had contact with men, was supposed to be Jesus Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well…here is a testimony to what it is like being in communion, its effect and discipline going back to Abitene, a small village in Tunisia.

'Forty-nine Christians were taken by surprise one Sunday while they were celebrating the Eucharist, gathered in the house of Octavius Felix, thereby defying the imperial prohibitions. They were arrested and taken to Carthage to be interrogated by the proconsul Anulinus.

Significant is the answer a certain Emeritus gave to the proconsul who asked him why on earth they had disobeyed the emperor’s severe orders. He replied: We cannot live without joining together on Sunday to celebrate the Eucharist. We would lack the strength to face our daily problems and not to succumb…Christ is truly present among us in the Eucharist…It is a dynamic presence that grasps us, to make us his own, to make us assimilate him. Christ draws us to him, he makes us come out of ourselves to make us all one with him…Communion with the Lord is always also communion with our brothers and sisters…He is the one same Christ who is present in the Eucharistic Bread of every place on earth. This means that we can encounter him only together with all others. We can only receive him in unity…

The consequence is clear: we cannot communicate with the Lord if we do not communicate with one another. If we want to present ourselves to him, we must also take a step towards meeting one another. To do this we must learn the great lesson of forgiveness: we must not let the gnawings of resentment work in our soul, but must open our hearts to the magnanimity of listening to others, open our hearts to understanding them, eventually to accepting their apologies, to generously offering our own.’

This is an excerpt from 'Benedictus: Day by Day with Papa Benedict XVI…

And this sounds alot like P Francis in America talking to us today…

We cannot have communion in the Eucharist if we are strangers to each other, we do not communicate with each other…

 

[Duane1966]

Yes that goes both ways , about reading all writings, including retractions.

Bottom line is we genuinely and sincerely differ on plain scripture (well, maybe not so plain,purposely) so I am sure we, and others, will differ on early fathers discussing same scriptures.

Blessings

I know we talked about St. Augustine’s Retractationes, which never mean retractions, a better definition for retractationes is clarification. Augustine makes it clear he is retracting nothing.

If there is another father you have in mind, please name him.

 

[Telstar]

This is a lecture of St. Cyril of Jerusalem, who lived about 315 - 386.

Catechetical Lecture 22 (On the Mysteries. IV.) from New Advent.

On the Body and Blood of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:23

I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, how that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, etc.

1. Even of itself the teaching of the Blessed Paul is sufficient to give you a full assurance concerning those Divine Mysteries, of which having been deemed worthy, you have become of the same body and blood with Christ. For you have just heard him say distinctly, “That our Lord Jesus Christ in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it, and gave to His disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, Take, drink, this is My Blood.” Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, “This is My Body”, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, “This is My Blood”, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?
2. He once in Cana of Galilee, turned the water into wine, akin to blood, and is it incredible that He should have turned wine into blood? When called to a bodily marriage, He miraculously wrought that wonderful work; and “on the children of the bride-chamber” Matthew 9:15, shall He not much rather be acknowledged to have bestowed the fruition of His Body and Blood?
3. Wherefore with full assurance let us partake as of the Body and Blood of Christ: for in the figure of Bread is given to you His Body, and in the figure of Wine His Blood; that you by partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, may be made of the same body and the same blood with Him. For thus we come to bear Christ in us, because His Body and Blood are distributed through our members; thus it is that, according to the blessed Peter, “we become partakers of the divine nature” 2 Peter 1:4.
4. Christ on a certain occasion discoursing with the Jews said, “Except you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in you.” John 6:53. They not having heard His saying in a spiritual sense were offended, and went back, supposing that He was inviting them to eat flesh.
5. In the Old Testament also there was show-bread; but this, as it belonged to the Old Testament, has come to an end; but in the New Testament there is Bread of heaven, and a Cup of salvation, sanctifying soul and body; for as the Bread corresponds to our body, so is the Word appropriate to our soul.
6. Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord’s declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to you, yet let faith establish you. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouchsafed to you.
7. Also the blessed David shall advise you the meaning of this, saying, “You have prepared a table before me in the presence of them that afflict me.” What he says, is to this effect: Before Your coming, the evil spirits prepared a table for men , polluted and defiled and full of devilish influence ; but since Your coming. O Lord, You have prepared a table before me. When the man says to God, You have prepared before me a table, what other does he indicate but that mystical and spiritual Table, which God has prepared for us over against, that is, contrary and in opposition to the evil spirits? And very truly; for that had communion with devils, but this, with God. “You have anointed my head with oil.” With oil He anointed your head upon your forehead, for the seal which you have of God; that you may be made the engraving of the signet, Holiness unto God. “And your cup intoxicates me, as very strong.” You see that cup here spoken of, which Jesus took in His hands, and gave thanks, and said, “This is My blood, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” Matthew 26:28.
8. Therefore Solomon also, hinting at this grace, says in Ecclesiastes, “Come hither, eat your bread with joy” (that is, the spiritual bread; Come hither, he calls with the call to salvation and blessing), “and drink your wine with a merry heart” (that is, the spiritual wine); “and let oil be poured out upon your head” you see he alludes even to the mystic Chrism); “and let your garments be always white, for the Lord is well pleased with your works” Ecclesiastes 9:7-8; for before you came to Baptism, your works were “vanity of vanities”. But now, having put off your old garments, and put on those which are spiritually white, you must be continually robed in white: of course we mean not this, that you are always to wear white raiment; but you must be clad in the garments that are truly white and shining and spiritual, that you may say with the blessed Esaias, “My soul shall be joyful in my God; for He has clothed me with a garment of salvation, and put a robe of gladness around me” Isaiah 61:10.
9. Having learned these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, “And bread strengthens man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil”, “strengthen your heart,” by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of your soul to shine.” And so having it unveiled with a pure conscience, may you reflect as a mirror the glory of the Lord 2 Corinthians 3:18, and proceed from glory to glory, in Christ Jesus our Lord:— To whom be honour, and might, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

(Some emphasis and quotation marks were added by me for clarity, since the article’s marks of emphasis didn’t carry over from the copy/paste.)

 

[JMM1957]

Hi JMM,

Disagree that that was the purpose of the letter . The heresy was way beyond “communion” understanding. The heresies were held by folks that were called “Gnostics”.

Blessings

And where do you think these heresies originally sprang out of? What church did these heretics go out from?

 

[benhur]

And where do you think these heresies originally sprang out of? What church did these heretics go out from?

OK Sorry .Yes, the letter was to the church at Smyrna. More than half the letter deals with unbelievers, as he calls them, with heretical views on Christ. Their (Gnostics) main thrust is that Christ came not in the flesh, nor suffered in the flesh, nor rose in the flesh but was a "semblance’’ (apparition).

Ignatius mentions Christ’s flesh,* apart from communion*, nine times. That is the context, all the things showing that Christ was incarnate.

Ignatius goes on to show the six actions/fruits of these heretics: no love for widows, orphans, imprisoned, hungry, thirsty, and abstain from communion rite/sacrament.

I understand folks citing this as Ignatius expounding on literalness of transubstantiated communion elements. I also understand those who say it just as much can show forth the reality behind the communion elements (figurative). The Gnostics disbelieved* both *of these communion views.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

This is a lecture of St. Cyril of Jerusalem, who lived about 315 - 386.

Catechetical Lecture 22 (On the Mysteries. IV.) from New Advent.

On the Body and Blood of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:23

I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, how that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, etc.

1. Even of itself the teaching of the Blessed Paul is sufficient to give you a full assurance concerning those Divine Mysteries, of which having been deemed worthy, you have become of the same body and blood with Christ. For you have just heard him say distinctly, “That our Lord Jesus Christ in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He broke it, and gave to His disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, Take, drink, this is My Blood.” Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, “This is My Body”, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, “This is My Blood”, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?
2. He once in Cana of Galilee, turned the water into wine, akin to blood, and is it incredible that He should have turned wine into blood? When called to a bodily marriage, He miraculously wrought that wonderful work; and “on the children of the bride-chamber” Matthew 9:15, shall He not much rather be acknowledged to have bestowed the fruition of His Body and Blood?
3. Wherefore with full assurance let us partake as of the Body and Blood of Christ: for in the figure of Bread is given to you His Body, and in the figure of Wine His Blood; that you by partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, may be made of the same body and the same blood with Him. For thus we come to bear Christ in us, because His Body and Blood are distributed through our members; thus it is that, according to the blessed Peter, “we become partakers of the divine nature” 2 Peter 1:4.
4. Christ on a certain occasion discoursing with the Jews said, “Except you eat My flesh and drink My blood, you have no life in you.” John 6:53. They not having heard His saying in a spiritual sense were offended, and went back, supposing that He was inviting them to eat flesh.
5. In the Old Testament also there was show-bread; but this, as it belonged to the Old Testament, has come to an end; but in the New Testament there is Bread of heaven, and a Cup of salvation, sanctifying soul and body; for as the Bread corresponds to our body, so is the Word appropriate to our soul.
6. Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord’s declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to you, yet let faith establish you. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouchsafed to you.
7. Also the blessed David shall advise you the meaning of this, saying, “You have prepared a table before me in the presence of them that afflict me.” What he says, is to this effect: Before Your coming, the evil spirits prepared a table for men , polluted and defiled and full of devilish influence ; but since Your coming. O Lord, You have prepared a table before me. When the man says to God, You have prepared before me a table, what other does he indicate but that mystical and spiritual Table, which God has prepared for us over against, that is, contrary and in opposition to the evil spirits? And very truly; for that had communion with devils, but this, with God. “You have anointed my head with oil.” With oil He anointed your head upon your forehead, for the seal which you have of God; that you may be made the engraving of the signet, Holiness unto God. “And your cup intoxicates me, as very strong.” You see that cup here spoken of, which Jesus took in His hands, and gave thanks, and said, “This is My blood, which is shed for many for the remission of sins” Matthew 26:28.
8. Having learned these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, “And bread strengthens man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil”, “strengthen your heart,” by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of your soul to shine.” And so having it unveiled with a pure conscience, may you reflect as a mirror the glory of the Lord 2 Corinthians 3:18, and proceed from glory to glory, in Christ Jesus our Lord:— To whom be honour, and might, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

(Some emphasis and quotation marks were added by me for clarity, since the article’s marks of emphasis didn’t carry over from the copy/paste.)

Have no problem with this. he uses the words"figure" and "spiritual’. So of course the elements figure nothing but the Lord’s body and blood, and I partake spiritually.

Blessings

PS Do not agree with his view on 2 Peter dealing with this, or wine at Cana, other than He can do anything, but do not presume that because He can He did.

 

[Michael68]

At Cana, Mary interceded for the wedding host as she continues to do for us today.

 

[eddie_too]

to me, eating a symbol is infinitely less efficacious than actually eating the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. that may be the reason Jesus gave us His Body and Blood to eat and drink, because His actual Body and Blood are infinite and divine communion with Him while symbols are mere material objects that remind people of Jesus instead of uniting people with Jesus physically. people who have never consumed Jesus in His entirety, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity cannot experientially know or understand the differences between eating symbolic bread and wine and eating the Body and Blood of Jesus. pray that, someday everyone in this vale of tears all might receive total communion with Jesus through the sacrifice of the altar preserved for us by Jesus’ magisterium.

which would be the greater gift of love, physical symbols of the Lord’s Body and Blood or the actual Body and Blood? why would Jesus deny us His Body and Blood as real food and drink when it was completely within His power to give It to us?