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SalusaSecondus
Guest
Lol. Not at all what I was meaning but I I think you already know that.
If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?
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Horton
Guest
You asked for times Jesus asked the impossible. Any progress on the “many” ECFs?
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JMM1957
Guest
Yes, that’s my understanding too, thanks for adding to what I originally said.
J
JMM1957
Guest
I did a little research on it, but didn’t dig too deeply. One site said that Eusebius, Basil, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian thought that in John 6, Jesus was speaking symbolically. This information came from a Protestant site, so I guess you have to take that into consideration. I didn’t search long enough to find a Catholic site that dealt specifically with ECF’s and John 6.
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adrift
Guest
First off you posted the wrong chapter you refer to chapter 34
Chapter 34. Christ Plainly Testifies to the Resurrection of the Entire Man. Not in His Soul Only, Without the Body.
The intent was not to make commentary on John 6 but to support that Jesus physically rose from the dead both body and soul.
You also make the comment that it was before the Last Supper so could not be about the Eucharist.
“I will give” is future tense that future was the Last Supper.
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PRmerger
Guest
You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that Catholicism gets its doctrines from a Book.
Let me assure you that it does not.
We do not use book, chapter and verse to distill our doctrines.
I will answer with the same answer you would give a Muslim or Jew who worships the God of Abraham–you may think you are correct because you believe in the One God, but, alas, you have an impoverished theology and are in want of more.
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SalusaSecondus
Guest
Yes, from Roman Catholicism.
Sure, no problem here. I don’t take the figurative or symbolic view of the Eucharist.
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benhur
Guest
As far as a general answer, I feel the CC response to separated brethren is a bit confusing, and at times seems to be speaking from both sides of mouth. There sometimes is the debate of salvation outside the CC. Unfortunately not all the answers are found in one spot, one decree or encyclical. So in some places we are admittedly “brethren”. Yet in other places not if we *knowingly *reject Catholicism .
And then like your good question, how can we be brethren if we have not eaten His flesh , or be forgiven of sin without the sacrament of reconcilation, or without ordained ministers in line of succession ? I understand we are brethren based on the proper baptismal formula. Yet is there life after that , with differing eucharist views, or confessional views etc. ? Apparently so, even though as separated, and many knowingly not Catholic.
So then, of course you are bound to Catholic doctrine if you are a Catholic. And yet we still can be "brethren’’ if you are not. So apparently, different scenarios can be qualified or judged differently , than say if you are Catholic.
Just some quick thoughts, open to refining. Good question.
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Hi SS
Valid question, for despite claims to authority of Tradition and right of magisterium, most Catholic doctrines, even practices, are and can also be shown to be “scriptural” by her.
Blessings
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Chaddicus_Finch
Guest
This is why I was hoping an apologist could answer this. Instead of answering the logical issue, it’s devolved into a question on whether Jesus is speaking of the Eucharist in John 6, which is not my point.
I’m specifically asking how the Catholic Church can reconcile their interpretation of John 6 with their view of Protestants as separated brethren… Protestants - please don’t derail this into the interpretation of John 6. Instead, assume the Catholic view of John 6 is correct and let’s discuss how both can be true.
If that has been answered, I apologize as it’s clearly been lost in all the bickering over if Jesus was referring to the Eucharist or not.
Btw, Ben Hur I was not referring to you. You are on point, sir.
:+1:t2:
I’m specifically asking how the Catholic Church can reconcile their interpretation of John 6 with their view of Protestants as separated brethren… Protestants - please don’t derail this into the interpretation of John 6. Instead, assume the Catholic view of John 6 is correct and let’s discuss how both can be true.
If that has been answered, I apologize as it’s clearly been lost in all the bickering over if Jesus was referring to the Eucharist or not.
Btw, Ben Hur I was not referring to you. You are on point, sir.
:+1:t2:
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
With extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, we believe that there is no salvation outside of the Church. Holy Communion is the food of the soul that nourishes it and strengthens it in the pursuance of virtue & heaven. Without It, it’s nearly impossible to get to heaven. Those that aren’t Catholic do not receive Holy Communion and therefore lack the graces that It imparts to guide them to heaven.
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Horton
Guest
catholicbridge.com/catholic/are_non-christians_saved.phpThis is why I was hoping an apologist could answer this. Instead of answering the logical issue, it’s devolved into a question on whether Jesus is speaking of the Eucharist in John 6, which is not my point.
I’m specifically asking how the Catholic Church can reconcile their interpretation of John 6 with their view of Protestants as separated brethren… Protestants - please don’t derail this into the interpretation of John 6. Instead, assume the Catholic view of John 6 is correct and let’s discuss how both can be true.
If that has been answered, I apologize as it’s clearly been lost in all the bickering over if Jesus was referring to the Eucharist or not.
Btw, Ben Hur I was not referring to you. You are on point, sir.
This is an article that speaks to your question.
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JMM1957
Guest
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KathleenGee
Guest
In the broadest sense, if a person is baptized by the Trinitarian formula, then they are essentially members of the Universal Catholic Church.
I use that name now…it was provided by St. Ignatius of Antioch on his way to martyrdom in 107 AD in defining the Church, comprised of all the Patriarchs of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, and Constantinople although the latter developed more so in the 300’s.
So anyone, who claims Christ as His Lord, and is baptized, are our separated Christian brethren.
However, they cannot receive Holy Communion without proper initiation into the Church. Inquiries who attend the Rite of Christian Initiation (RCIA), many times indicate their intent…want to learn about the Church but not enter, or are discerning, or do want to join. The inquiry is made to see if those attending were already baptized using the Trinitarian formula.
If baptized Protestants want to become Catholics, they do not get re-baptized as they are already incorporated into the Church.
I use that name now…it was provided by St. Ignatius of Antioch on his way to martyrdom in 107 AD in defining the Church, comprised of all the Patriarchs of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, and Constantinople although the latter developed more so in the 300’s.
So anyone, who claims Christ as His Lord, and is baptized, are our separated Christian brethren.
However, they cannot receive Holy Communion without proper initiation into the Church. Inquiries who attend the Rite of Christian Initiation (RCIA), many times indicate their intent…want to learn about the Church but not enter, or are discerning, or do want to join. The inquiry is made to see if those attending were already baptized using the Trinitarian formula.
If baptized Protestants want to become Catholics, they do not get re-baptized as they are already incorporated into the Church.
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JMM1957
Guest
I agree with what you are saying about them being baptized members of the Church in the broad sense, but then at that point they would need to make the decision to enter the Catholic Church specifically or not. If they join the Church, then they are required to accept the teaching of the Sacraments and participate in them. If they choose to stay outside the Church, would they not be in a difficult position, in regards to salvation, by knowing of the Church and the Sacraments, but electing to not become full members of it?
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zz912
Guest
It basically boils down to a question of their acceptance of the Gospel message, as far they have been fully introduced to it.
As an example, take the OT prophets and righteous. They waited in the Bosom of Abraham until Jesus came to preach to them on Holy Saturday. They could not have accepted the Gospel because they lived before Jesus. As Jesus stated, those who did not know something are not held responsible.
Now let’s take for example a God-fearing faithful, humble Baptist, who attends church every Sunday, lives the commandments, commits many acts of charity, studies the Scriptures, and tries to love God as best they can. BUT, this Baptist has never met a Catholic who has zeal for proclaiming the faith and can defend the faith. They’ve never met someone who can poke holes in the belief that John 6 is figurative, something they’ve been taught and understood all their life. This person simply doesn’t know Jesus was being literal. But if they did run across this Catholic, they would eventually open their eyes and convert to His Church.
Would Jesus hold this person responsible for this lack of knowledge? Of course not. So Jesus would save them through some mechanism of His grace that we don’t understand yet, but it would be through His Church. We simply don’t know how He will do it.
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Horton
Guest
This is a sticky situation. For those who either have been exposed to Catholic teaching and reject it and those who are baptized, confirmed, and have been participants of the sacraments in the Catholic Church and later reject the teachings are left to God’s mercy.
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JMM1957
Guest
And to be perfectly honest, only God, and nobody else, can make the judgement on whether or not a non-Catholic has been exposed to the Truth of the Gospel sufficiently sometime in their life to be held accountable. We know God is just and merciful and shows no partiality to anyone, Jesus died for the whole world and wills all to be saved. God created the world (humanity) through Jesus and does not want destruction for His creation.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Problem out there is that there is so much misconception among Protestants in what Catholics actually believe…and I would say also, very much, in how we relate to the papacy.
They also are in this position of their own personal opinion or take…‘declaration of faith’ vs let’s say, of Peter affirming Christ as Son of the Living God…whereas we as Catholics now see this as similar to a theophany…the sign that now Peter was speaking in the Holy Spirit, and now the Lord able to name Peter as the head of His Church (Christ the Living Cornerstone).
(Linguists and 25 Protestant theologians affirm the Church is correct that Peter was named ‘the rock’ in the Greek/Aramaic sense of referring to a person’s name, not an inanimate object.)
They also are in this position of their own personal opinion or take…‘declaration of faith’ vs let’s say, of Peter affirming Christ as Son of the Living God…whereas we as Catholics now see this as similar to a theophany…the sign that now Peter was speaking in the Holy Spirit, and now the Lord able to name Peter as the head of His Church (Christ the Living Cornerstone).
(Linguists and 25 Protestant theologians affirm the Church is correct that Peter was named ‘the rock’ in the Greek/Aramaic sense of referring to a person’s name, not an inanimate object.)
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benhur
Guest
Hi zz’
Not sure Jesus preached a salvation message ala billy graham or St Francis etc etc. while in “hell”. That would be biblically problematic with, " it is given unto man to die once and there go to judgement (that is , no second chances).
The word preach means more of “to herald” in that quote. Both the new and old testament saints are saved by faith (producing works) and that by hearing of the Word of God. Right from Adam and Eve and the Protoevenagelium, to Abraham and the promise of much righteous seed , to David and the promise of one who would sit on his throne perfectly , and not after the manner of men etc. .These were all gospels, news of reconciliation, promises to believe. They looked forward to Christ, as we look backwards. They had the same spiirtual journey that we have. That is, they are born fallen , and must be regenerated by faith in and thru God, just like us (though our indwelling by the Holy Ghost is unique but not without foreshadowing).
But I do agree we will be judged by what has been placed before us as far as His Word etc…Good point.
It may be that we also will be heralded upon entry into heaven. That is, the things of our faith walk, and the church’s, and that of the Jewish nation, and all that end time stuff etc., will be made much clearer to us when we see Him face to face. But again, we are already in heaven, no more decisions to make.
Blessings
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