If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?

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rcwitness said:
The same could be said about Baptism, yet Jesus says…

Mark 16:16 (RSVCE)

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
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But it does not say if you are not baptized but believe you are condemned. There is a role for baptism , but there are many more verses about belief, calling out, saving you. Also, one believes first then is baptized. You do not get baptized to believe. So we participate in communion not to receive Christ but because we already have Him (and what makes us cry out a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving which =eucharist).

Blessings
 
Chaddicus_Finch said:
I’ve asked this question twice on the “ask an apologist” forum but apparently it doesn’t qualify, so I figured I’d ask it here.

I am about to start RCIA after being a protestant for 18 years (and grown up my entire life in protestant churches). This was one question I had regarding what seems like conflicting church teaching and talking to one of my protestant friends about me converting, he asked the same question.

In John 6, Jesus says:

“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so also whoever eats me, the same shall live because of me. This is the bread that descends from heaven. It is not like the manna that your fathers ate, for they died. Whoever eats this bread shall live forever.”

If this is to be taken as the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved since they cannot partake of his body and blood?
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A. Baptism and final repentance with prefect contrition for any post-baptismal grave sins, which will also mean living a Christlike life by the time of death.

John 3:5, Jesus previously instructed that baptism is essential.5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 6:50-52, Jesus is speaking in general:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any one eat of it, he may not die.
51 I am the living bread, which came down from heaven.
52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread which I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world.
John 6:51-54 Jesus addressed *the Jews that disputed *what he said.53 The Jews, therefore, disputed among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
 
benhur said:
But it does not say if you are not baptized but believe you are condemned. There is a role for baptism , but there are many more verses about belief, calling out, saves you. Also, one believes first than is baptized, You do not get baptized to believe. So we participate in communion not to receive Christ but because we already have Him.

Blessings
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I think the point is that once you believe (the Father drawing/convicting us to the knowledge of the Truth about us and God) then the belief requires obedience.

Acts 22:16

“Why do you wait? Rise and be Baptized and wash away your sins.”

You see, to believe is to seek Baptism. And to believe is to participate in the life of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 10:16

16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participationin the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation*in the body of Christ?
 
zz912 said:
The gates were opened at the Resurrection, once the New Covenant had been completed and fulfilled. But how is that covenant applied to those who had already died? To enter a covenant, usually one must agree to become a member of the family and take on the responsibilities of such (faith in Jesus), and then ratify/enact the covenant (baptism/Eucharist) and made a part of the family (the Church/Body of Christ), and then live out the responsibilities of being a part of the family (works).

Obviously the righteous from the OT times could not ratify and enact the covenant for themselves, so they must have been made a part of the Body of Christ through some means that we don’t understand.
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Not sure I follow still. They had faith in their own covenant, all a foreshadow of Christ, a fulfillment of all covenants. Their faith acquired the righteousness needed. That they had to "wait’’ has nothing to do with their position in Christ. The door was not closed because they were unrighteous, but simply that the Messiah had not propitiated yet.

Again their faith looked forward as ours looks back to Calvary . The Adamic covenant was protoevangelium. They had faith in a future Calvary. They have no further “initiation” needed to apply the consequences of that fulfillment. Calvary propitiates all the sins of the world since its foundation, past, present, and future.

Just some thoughts thanks.

Blessings
 
benhur said:
But it does not say if you are not baptized but believe you are condemned. There is a role for baptism , but there are many more verses about belief, calling out, saving you. Also, one believes first then is baptized. You do not get baptized to believe. So we participate in communion not to receive Christ but because we already have Him (and what makes us cry out a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving which =eucharist).

Blessings
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This depends on if you believe Jesus is talking of baptism when He said " unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
We participate both in baptism and the Eucharist because Jesus commanded it.
 
Chaddicus_Finch said:
Isn’t this referring more to those who have never heard the Gospel or heard of Jesus at all? I understand them to be a completely different case than Protestants who surely cannot be referred to as “ignorant of the Gospel”. I can understand the position on those who have never heard the Gospel, but my specific question is with Protestants who do not believe John 6 is referring to the Eucharist and/or don’t believe there is anything more than symbolism at work.

God bless!
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I would agree with you that CCC 847 and 848 may not relate to your question, only in that the CCC paragraphs reference ‘no fault of their own’.

A follower of God who walks away from Him would not fit into ‘no fault of their own’. Like the followers who walk away from Him in John 6, that is their decision after hearing a ‘hard’ teaching.

However, it would seem a follower of God who is never taught the ‘hard’ teaching, would qualify for 847. Say a child of someone who rejects a teaching because it is ‘too hard’. Thus, the child never has an opportunity to know the teaching and potentially throw their faith behind it.

Take care,

Mike
 
benhur said:
But it does not say if you are not baptized but believe you are condemned. There is a role for baptism , but there are many more verses about belief, calling out, saving you. Also, one believes first then is baptized. You do not get baptized to believe. So we participate in communion not to receive Christ but because we already have Him (and what makes us cry out a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving which =eucharist).

Blessings
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“Baptism now saves you”

Your personal view on baptism and salvation seems contrary to Scripture.
 
benhur said:
Not sure I follow still. They had faith in their own covenant, all a foreshadow of Christ, a fulfillment of all covenants. Their faith acquired the righteousness needed. That they had to "wait’’ has nothing to do with their position in Christ. The door was not closed because they were unrighteous, but simply that the Messiah had not propitiated yet.

Again their faith looked forward as ours looks back to Calvary . The Adamic covenant was protoevangelium. They had faith in a future Calvary. They have no further “initiation” needed to apply the consequences of that fulfillment. Calvary propitiates all the sins of the world since its foundation, past, present, and future.

Just some thoughts thanks.

Blessings
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You must perform some action to enroll yourself into a covenant. Covenants with God were rituals and actions that were required to be performed. What actions are needed to enroll oneself into the New Covenant?
 
zz912 said:
“Baptism now saves you”

Your personal view on baptism and salvation seems contrary to Scripture.
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Can the old man, the flesh ,the unregenerated spirit, dead in sins, having enmity with God, have saving faith ? Do you baptize folks in that condition ? Or do they already believe, confess Jesus as the Messiah (in adult baptisms) ? Your view on baptism says one can be the former(flesh,carnal) and still believe, for they are not regenerated until after baptism .

Blessings
 
zz912 said:
You must perform some action to enroll yourself into a covenant. Covenants with God were rituals and actions that were required to be performed. What actions are needed to enroll oneself into the New Covenant?
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“And this is the action,the work of God, that you believe on Him who He sent”. Yes, confession/baptism seals that.
 
benhur said:
“And this is the action,the work of God, that you believe on Him who He sent”. Yes, confession/baptism seals that.
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Yes!

We would say Baptism and Communion (in state of grace) COMPLETES belief.

So that belief becomes “Believing IN” Him or ON Him.

If there is lack of opportunity to fulfill God’s will that we receive these, then we are taught He sees the heart and is just to receive us through no fault of our own.
 
rcwitness said:
Yes!

We would say Baptism and Communion (in state of grace) COMPLETES belief.

So that belief becomes “Believing IN” Him or ON Him.

If there is lack of opportunity to fulfill God’s will that we receive these, then we are taught He sees the heart and is just to receive us through no fault of our own.
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Well, just that one must believe in/on Christ before water baptism.
 
benhur, I am glad you are in this thread! This is a deal question that has me searching the faith. And I am always encouraged that it is the Word and Spirit which life comes from.

For example, the first line in Scripture tells us the Spirit was over the waters! It is the Spirit that gives life!

And are not the Words of the Lord spoken over the Bread and Wine?

Does not the Spirit descend and make the Bread and Wine His host to bodily enter us?

This is also why it is important whom we receive Eucharist through. We believe this leadership contains in their profession of faith the True presence and fullness of Jesus!

Why would we communicate His Bread through an institution which we would not profess as infallible?

To those Christians who do not eat the Catholic Eucharist meal yet have a genuine faith through no fault of their own have been deprived of His Sacrament, I believe that the Word descends on them in other manners.

Just like the Sabbath, man was not made for the sacraments but the sacraments were established for the new man! We should never excuse ourselves from them, but He is not bound by them.

Further, I think woe to the pastor who stand in the place of the new covenant supper and feeds children an invalid communion. It is not in communion with His Teachings.
 
rcwitness said:
But has one personally received the forgiveness of sins before water Baptism?
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Can one be alive and still dead in trespasses and sin ? Has not the Holy Spirit indwelt even gifted some before any water ? Baptism =confession but confession does not always equal baptism. In the early church baptism was usually immediate, unlike today.
 
Yes…Baptism washes away all sin…if you were to die on the day of your baptism…and died…without sin…you would go straight to heaven.
 
Hi Chad!

I think the best answer to your question that I’ve come across is this:

That Jesus preceeds and follows his negative “Unless you…” statement with generally positive statements “He who eats…”. Also the negative statement is said to the 2nd person pronoun, that is, to His immediate listeners, while the positive statement can be said to apply to mankind in general.

The point here is, that when Jesus personally tells you NOT to refrain from eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood then you will be held responsible. Those not being told will not.

Thus modern Protestants, not being taught by the Church, the Body of Christ Himself, may not be held as responsible as Catholics.

peace
steve
Chaddicus_Finch said:
I’ve asked this question twice on the “ask an apologist” forum but apparently it doesn’t qualify, so I figured I’d ask it here.

I am about to start RCIA after being a protestant for 18 years (and grown up my entire life in protestant churches). This was one question I had regarding what seems like conflicting church teaching and talking to one of my protestant friends about me converting, he asked the same question.

In John 6, Jesus says:

“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you will not have life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father has sent me and I live because of the Father, so also whoever eats me, the same shall live because of me. This is the bread that descends from heaven. It is not like the manna that your fathers ate, for they died. Whoever eats this bread shall live forever.”

If this is to be taken as the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved since they cannot partake of his body and blood?
Click to expand...
 
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