If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?

[adrift]

Can one be alive and still dead in trespasses and sin ? Has not the Holy Spirit indwelt even gifted some before any water ? Baptism =confession but confession does not always equal baptism. In the early church baptism was usually immediate, unlike today.

The problem I find in reading your post is you use words without defining them.

I am sure when you use confession that it might not mean the same as when I use the word confession.
You also use the word regeneration. I believe you need to define both of these so that we are on the same page with you and not guessing what you do mean.

 

[eazyduzit]

Yes…Baptism washes away all sin…if you were to die on the day of your baptism…and died…without sin…you would go straight to heaven.

I don’t see in the Bible were water can wash away sins. It is only the blood that can wash away sins. See Rev 1:5,5:9,7:14, Rm3:25,5:9, Eph.1:7, Heb.13:12, 1Pt.1:19
In Acts 3:19,Peter said,“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out…”
In the NT Baptism is symbolic of death.

 

[rcwitness]

I don’t see in the Bible were water can wash away sins. It is only the blood that can wash away sins. See Rev 1:5,5:9,7:14, Rm3:25,5:9, Eph.1:7, Heb.13:12, 1Pt.1:19
In Acts 3:19,Peter said,“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out…”
In the NT Baptism is symbolic of death.

Acts 22:16

And nowwhydoyouwait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away*your sins, calling on his name.’

 

[adrift]

I don’t see in the Bible were water can wash away sins…

see
Acts 2:38
1 Pet. 3:20-21

 

[PRmerger]

Acts 22:16

And nowwhydoyouwait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away*your sins, calling on his name.’

 

[JMM1957]

I don’t see in the Bible were water can wash away sins. It is only the blood that can wash away sins. See Rev 1:5,5:9,7:14, Rm3:25,5:9, Eph.1:7, Heb.13:12, 1Pt.1:19
In Acts 3:19,Peter said,“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out…”
In the NT Baptism is symbolic of death.

Water and blood both cleanse us from sin, its not one or the other. Romans 6:3 tells us how. “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” Since Christ shed His blood in His death, when a person is baptized into our Lord’s death, it is there that he comes into contact with the blood of Christ and his sins are then washed away. Baptism is the only means of reaching His death where His blood was shed, so we can have forgiveness of sins. So, when Ananias told Paul in Acts 22:16, “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins,” it was the blood of Christ that washed away Paul’s sins when he was baptized.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes…Water and Blood…Thanks, JMM

When the Lord’s side was pierced after His death, water and blood came out.

Baptism is our incorporation into the life of Christ…the first step.

But we must pick up our cross and follow Him…we must accept our own crucifixion…so the Lord may truly live in us…and we are nourished not just by His Word…but by His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist.

The Word Made Flesh…fulfilling the Tree of Life in Genesis 3, we fulfill our faith in God by eating the Good Fruit of Jesus Christ.

 

[Vico]

Isn’t this referring more to those who have never heard the Gospel or heard of Jesus at all? I understand them to be a completely different case than Protestants who surely cannot be referred to as “ignorant of the Gospel”. I can understand the position on those who have never heard the Gospel, but my specific question is with Protestants who do not believe John 6 is referring to the Eucharist and/or don’t believe there is anything more than symbolism at work.

God bless!

Invincible ignorance can apply to Christians and non-Christians. Not everyone has been taught the Truth, although they do have conscience, yet this conscience may err.

Vatican II, Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes, No. 16, mentions invincible ignorance.“16. In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience. … In fidelity to conscience, Christians are joined with the rest of men in the search for truth, and for the genuine solution to the numerous problems which arise in the life of individuals from social relationships. Hence the more right conscience holds sway, the more persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and strive to be guided by the objective norms of morality. Conscience frequently errs from invincible ignorance without losing its dignity.”
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html
The teaching of the Catholic Church is that anyone that is saved, is a member of the Church of Christ, and that the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. Also there is no assurance of salvation for those baptized unless there is a state of grace at the moment of death. (Baptized includes infants – those before the use of reason.) That grace is lost through culpable grave sin without repentance.

Some Christians are not in full communion with the Catholic Church:

• the Orthodox particular churches (valid apostolic succession and sacraments, but lacking full communion).
• the various Christian ecclesial communities (they do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church).

Catechism of the Catholic Church 870 “The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines”(*LG *8).

 

[benhur]

The problem I find in reading your post is you use words without defining them.

I am sure when you use confession that it might not mean the same as when I use the word confession.
You also use the word regeneration. I believe you need to define both of these so that we are on the same page with you and not guessing what you do mean.

Hi ad’

At first I thought to myself as I quickly rescanned my post, " what is he talking about ? They are all straight forward words." Then I got to “confession” and and I smiled to see what you mean. So I did not mean the sacrament or reconciliation with confession. I meant confession of saving faith in Christ as in Romans 10, “That if thou shalt* confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus*, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”.

And if I may state my point again, that confession is publicly done at baptism, and originally was done right away. Confession can also be done before without any water, way before any baptism.In fact it is a requirement for water baptism. So baptism = confession but not necessarily the other way around.

Regeneration is another word for born again or born of the spirit. It is a reviving of the spirit that is dead in trespasses and sin, a spiritual condition inherited from the fall.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

see
Acts 2:38
1 Pet. 3:20-21

Good point.It certainly seems that baptism is effectual and washes. But it also seems that calling on the name of the Lord does so also, and that His blood washes us, that the Word washes us, that regeneration by the Spirit washes us. John’s baptism was for repentance and sin cleansing. We are to be baptized in the Holy Ghost.

So is it the water, the calling out, the confession that His blood that saves us, cleanses us from all righteousness ? Is it somehow all of them ?

All I know is that many are born again, born of the spirit, regenerated and sometimes baptized in the Holy Ghost way before any water hit them. And out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and they babble like excited little children , “Abba Father” and, “Jesus is my Lord and Savior”. If you want to judge that they are still dead in their sins, OK, but I say it might be nitpicking legalism (because I can be good at that also).

I think the scriptures on the matter are laid out perfectly amongst possible confusion, so that indeed, no man will be saved by works of righteousness, but by His mercy and grace, and that no man may boast.

Blessings

P.S. Indeed let everyone be baptized in the name of the Lord (the Godhead), but because they have already been transformed, and let them say so.

 

[Vico]

Good point.It certainly seems that baptism is effectual and washes. But it also seems that calling on the name of the Lord does so also, and that His blood washes us, that the Word washes us, that regeneration by the Spirit washes us. John’s baptism was for repentance and sin cleansing. We are to be baptized in the Holy Ghost.

So is it the water, the calling out, the confession that His blood that saves us, cleanses us from all righteousness ? Is it somehow all of them ?

All I know is that many are born again, born of the spirit, regenerated and sometimes baptized in the Holy Ghost way before any water hit them. And out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and they babble like excited little children , “Abba Father” and, “Jesus is my Lord and Savior”. If you want to judge that they are still dead in their sins, OK, but I say it might be nitpicking legalism (because I can be good at that also).

I think the scriptures on the matter are laid out perfectly amongst possible confusion, so that indeed, no man will be saved by works of righteousness, but by His mercy and grace, and that no man may boast.

Blessings

P.S. Indeed let everyone be baptized in the name of the Lord (the Godhead), but because they have already been transformed, and let them say so.

John 3:55 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[adrift]

Hi ad’

At first I thought to myself as I quickly rescanned my post, " what is he talking about ? They are all straight forward words." Then I got to “confession” and and I smiled to see what you mean. So I did not mean the sacrament or reconciliation with confession. I meant confession of saving faith in Christ as in Romans 10, “That if thou shalt* confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus*, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”.

And if I may state my point again, that confession is publicly done at baptism, and originally was done right away. Confession can also be done before without any water, way before any baptism.In fact it is a requirement for water baptism. So baptism = confession but not necessarily the other way around.

Regeneration is another word for born again or born of the spirit. It is a reviving of the spirit that is dead in trespasses and sin, a spiritual condition inherited from the fall.

Blessings

Thank you I thought that is what you meant by confession but I wanted to make sure.
We are not on the same page about regeneration. Regeneration is baptism. When you use the term born again, correct me if I am wrong, you do not mean baptism, on the other hand I do.

 

[benhur]

John 3:55 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Hi Vico,

We are straying, but do enjoy the diversion. As I posted, “the scriptures on the matter are laid out perfectly amongst possible confusion,…” Is it water that an old testament rabbi was supposed to know is regenerative ? Or is it the water of the Word ? Or is it the water with which we are born the first time in the placenta, that the rabbi brings up (re entering His mothers womb) ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Thank you I thought that is what you meant by confession but I wanted to make sure.
We are not on the same page about regeneration. Regeneration is baptism. When you use the term born again, correct me if I am wrong, you do not mean baptism, on the other hand I do.

Yes, you are correct in our competing meanings. I will say that in earliest church, they were almost simultaneous, or one followed the other almost immediately.

Blessings

 

[adrift]

Good point.It certainly seems that baptism is effectual and washes. But it also seems that calling on the name of the Lord does so also, and that His blood washes us, that the Word washes us, that regeneration by the Spirit washes us. John’s baptism was for repentance and sin cleansing. We are to be baptized in the Holy Ghost So is it the water, the calling out, the confession that His blood that saves us, cleanses us from all righteousness ? Is it somehow all of them ? .

I can’t help but recall Jesus word “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will.”

All I know is that many are born again, born of the spirit, regenerated and sometimes baptized in the Holy Ghost way before any water hit them. And out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and they babble like excited little children , “Abba Father” and, “Jesus is my Lord and Savior”. If you want to judge that they are still dead in their sins, OK, but I say it might be nitpicking legalism (because I can be good at that also).

The only way to be born again is baptism. You don’t see a conversion without baptism. To do the will of the Father is to follow Jesus. His last command to the apostles was to go and make disciples by baptizing them and teaching them.

I think the scriptures on the matter are laid out perfectly amongst possible confusion, so that indeed, no man will be saved by works of righteousness, but by His mercy and grace, and that no man may boast.

Again I can’t help but think of Jesus words.
“For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me”
You do know the rest of this this don’t you?

Blessings

P.S. Indeed let everyone be baptized in the name of the Lord (the Godhead), but because they have already been transformed, and let them say so.

I would say to be baptized because Jesus commanded it.

 

[adrift]

Hi Vico,

We are straying, but do enjoy the diversion. As I posted, “the scriptures on the matter are laid out perfectly amongst possible confusion,…” Is it water that an old testament rabbi was supposed to know is regenerative ? Or is it the water of the Word ? Or is it the water with which we are born the first time in the placenta, that the rabbi brings up (re entering His mothers womb) ?

Blessings

There are two kinds of life, natural and supernatural. Therefore there must be two types of generation. One is when conception occurs the other when baptism occurs and we become children of God.

 

[Vico]

Hi Vico,

We are straying, but do enjoy the diversion. As I posted, “the scriptures on the matter are laid out perfectly amongst possible confusion,…” Is it water that an old testament rabbi was supposed to know is regenerative ? Or is it the water of the Word ? Or is it the water with which we are born the first time in the placenta, that the rabbi brings up (re entering His mothers womb) ?

Blessings

I think it is not a diversion, because worthy reception of the Eucharist is conditional upon baptism (water, desire, or blood) and remaining in a state of grace through repentence: “Whoever eats this bread shall live forever.” refers to that person only.

The water of the flood of Noah foreshadows baptism. But, the eight were saved then because they were justified. The water is a sign. The grace of the Holy Spirit justifies us.
John 4
7There cometh a woman of Samaria, to draw water. Jesus saith to her: Give me to drink. 8For his disciples were gone into the city to buy meats. 9Then that Samaritan woman saith to him: How dost thou, being a Jew, ask of me to drink, who am a Samaritan woman? For the Jews do not communicate with the Samaritans. 10Jesus answered, and said to her: If thou didst know the gift of God, and who he is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou perhaps wouldst have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11The woman saith to him: Sir, thou hast nothing wherein to draw, and the well is deep; from whence then hast thou living water? 12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13Jesus answered, and said to her: Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again; but he that shall drink of the water that I will give him, shall not thirst for ever: 14But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting.
Catechism of the Catholic Church

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35​

 

[benhur]

There are two kinds of life, natural and supernatural. Therefore there must be two types of generation. One is when conception occurs the other when baptism occurs and we become children of God.

Exactly. Jesus nicely boomerangs off Nicodemus’s statement (reentering womb) by almost jestfully saying yes, you are born of your mother (water) but you must also be born of the spirit. Oh leader of Israel, do you not understand the fall (original sin) and need for rebirth in spirit ? So hence the Lord says you must be born of water and spirit to see spiritually or born twice as you say.

Blessings

 

[adrift]

Exactly. Jesus nicely boomerangs off Nicodemus’s statement (reentering womb) by almost jestfully saying yes, you are born of your mother (water) but you must also be born of the spirit. Oh leader of Israel, do you not understand the fall (original sin) and need for rebirth in spirit ? So hence the Lord says you must be born of water and spirit to see spiritually or born twice as you say.

Blessings

We disagree. Jesus was not talking about born of your mother.
Jesus said you must be born again.
Nicodemus misunderstanding asks how can he enter his mother’s womb again
Jesus corrects his misunderstanding
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.”
Jesus is saying born again of water and Spirit. Like Nicodemus you are misunderstanding Jesus. Jesus commanded to Baptize. It is only after this water of Baptism that the Spirit comes.

 

[Telstar]

Exactly. Jesus nicely boomerangs off Nicodemus’s statement (reentering womb) by almost jestfully saying yes, you are born of your mother (water) but you must also be born of the spirit. Oh leader of Israel, do you not understand the fall (original sin) and need for rebirth in spirit ? So hence the Lord says you must be born of water and spirit to see spiritually or born twice as you say.

Blessings

Hi, ben. It looks like we’re back on the same subject, again, eh?

First of all, Jesus is the one that made the statement that we must be born again, not Nicodemus. When we are born in the flesh, our soul is in a state of spiritual “death”. Actually, it’s more like it just hasn’t really been born and come to life, yet. It’s dormant, or, as yet “unborn” in the Holy Spirit. Baptism is what gives it life by washing away original sin, as well as our actual sins in the case of adults that have reached the age of reason. Our souls are not fully born until the Holy Spirit moves over the waters of Baptism and washes them in the Precious Blood of Jesus, to bring them into full life with God. (The Holy Spirit moves over the waters of Baptism just like He did in Genesis 1:2 “And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.”) That’s when they are “reborn” (or ‘born again’) and come into full spiritual awakening.

That’s when we become the adopted children of God, and can communicate freely with Him as our Father in Heaven. From that point on, we are capable of entering into eternal life along with Jesus, our Brother through adoption. Unless we are “born again” in Baptism, we are incapable of becoming all that God wants us to be, no matter how much we might ‘believe’ we can. It’s simply impossible until we become children of God. That’s what Jesus meant when He said, “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” We cannot really ‘see’ the things of God until we’ve been washed by the Precious Blood of Jesus in Baptism.

But, we can still lose that new life with Christ that is given to us, if we turn away from Him through our own continued sinfulness. That’s when the Sacrament of Confession comes into play for Catholics, because we can go to confess our sins to the Priest and be forgiven, which washes our souls with the Precious Blood of Jesus, once again. So, if we fall, we can start over, just like Jesus had to start over when He fell on the way to Calvary. His falls were a sign to show us how we must follow His example on our own ‘way of the cross’, by picking ourselves up, brushing ourselves off (through Confession) and continuing along our path in life. Hopefully, with the graces we gain through Confession, our falls will become less and less frequent as we make our way toward Heaven. At least, that’s the plan.