If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?

[zz912]

Do Catholics also accept v.40 or just the ones that appeal to them?

Belief isn’t just a mental assent. You must participate actively with God’s New Covenant. We take this and ALL scripture together. You can’t ignore any of the requirements for salvation.

 

[zz912]

Yes, the elements are symbols/signs for the Body and Blood of the Lord.

How does one get damned to hell forever for a symbol?

 

[ffg]

There are many times debate as is going on here over words, but let’s consider a bigger picture as well.

To be fair, I’m sure it seems that Catholics that take John 6 as is, have some kind of inside understanding of the bread of life discourse that others don’t see, many times I’m sure it seems smug.

The 20/20 vision of post Last Supper is regularly used as the foundation for some sort of understanding, However -

In reality strictly on the basis of the words in John 6 there is less or no understanding as much as…trust.

Why trust? Because of the Last Supper? Hardly. Consider -

Jesus said that to enter Heaven we must be like children. So what do Children have that as they grow they either lose, or it takes great effort to keep? Trust.

How might someone trust Jesus in the Bread of life discourse (or in general)?

1. signs (of which the last supper is not one) - Which bring
2. Confidence in who Jesus is - which should
3. Strengthen one’s Trust in Jesus (not understanding)

I don’t mention ‘understanding’, Why?

Like a child who trusts and does not understand, John in his writing style ensures he does not get in the way of our free will to trust throughout the whole Gospel by going extremely light on parables (where we might better understand).

Rather, he goes heavy on experience and related discussion leaving the mysteries simply that - mysteries (which require trust).

In all cultures and through history as shown in John 6 - people want to understand to believe.

With Jesus, there are not enough words in the world that would convince someone of His truth before trust.

You get to trust through signs.

The signs in John’s Gospel are:

Before the Bread of Life discourse:

1. Cana
2. Royal Son healed from significant travel distance
3. Cure of paralytic
4. Loaves and fish
5. Walking on water

After the Bread of Life Discourse
6) Blind Healed (ties into the Bread of Life Discourse in ‘followers’ discussions)
7) Lazarus - ‘last straw’ lead in to Jesus’ passion

Take care,

Mike

 

[JMM1957]

Yes, the elements are symbols/signs for the Body and Blood of the Lord.

Once again…"For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord."1 Cor.11:27

Paul received his teaching on the Eucharistic meal by a revelation of Jesus Christ directly, not from human teaching. Paul took this seriously, it was not a symbolic meal. Paul chastised the Corinthians for not taking it seriously, they were coming together and just eating their supper’s, instead of the Lord’s Supper. A symbol is not personal, it doesn’t bring us into direct contact with the actual physical flesh and blood of Jesus, this is why Paul states that participating in the Eucharist unworthily is “profaning the body and blood of the Lord.”

 

[Telstar]

This is not a personal opinion. It is the weight of scripture. Just as you said yourself, it takes more than one verse to nail down an interpretation. So here are 15 more verses that agree with Jn.3:15.
Jn.1:12,3:18,5:24,17:3,17
Acts 10:44, 11:14,17
Rm. 4:5, 5:1,10:9,10
Eph.2:8
Jms.1:21
1Pt.1:23
1Jn.5:1
John then says in 1Jn.5:13 “These things have I WRITTEN unto you. …that ye may know that ye have eternal life. …” In ALL these things there is no mention of BAPTISM or COMMUMION.
This is why i believe have the weight of scripture on my side. But if there is more to support your side ,then I’m going with you.

It’s still only your personal interpretation of the meanings of all those passages. Here’s a few on the importance of Baptism that I found.“Acts 10: [47] Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? [48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

“Acts 19: [2] And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost. [3] And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John’ s baptism. [4] Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance, saying: That they should believe in him who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus. [5] Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.”

“John 4:[1] When Jesus therefore understood that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus maketh more disciples, and baptizeth more than John, [2] (Though Jesus himself did not baptize, but his disciples,) [3] He left Judea, and went again into Galilee.”

“Romans 6: [3] Know you not that all we, who are baptized in Christ Jesus, are baptized in his death? [4] For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin may be destroyed, to the end that we may serve sin no longer. [7] For he that is dead is justified from sin.”

“Ephesians 4: [1] I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, [2] With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

“1 Peter 3: [18] Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, [19] In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: [20] Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. [21] Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. [22] Who is on the right hand of God, swallowing down death, that we might be made heirs of life everlasting: being gone into heaven, the angels and powers and virtues being made subject to him.”

“Matthew 3: [13] Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. [14] But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? [15] And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him. [16] And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. [17] And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

“Mark 16: [15] And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned. [17] And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues. [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they shall recover. [19] And the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God. [20] But they going forth preached everywhere: the Lord working withal, and confirming the word with signs that followed.”

“Mathew 28: [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”
(all emphasis mine)

 

[JMM1957]

This is not a personal opinion. It is the weight of scripture. Just as you said yourself, it takes more than one verse to nail down an interpretation. So here are 15 more verses that agree with Jn.3:15.
Jn.1:12,3:18,5:24,17:3,17
Acts 10:44, 11:14,17
Rm. 4:5, 5:1,10:9,10
Eph.2:8
Jms.1:21
1Pt.1:23
1Jn.5:1
John then says in 1Jn.5:13 “These things have I WRITTEN unto you. …that ye may know that ye have eternal life. …” In ALL these things there is no mention of BAPTISM or COMMUMION.
This is why i believe have the weight of scripture on my side. But if there is more to support your side ,then I’m going with you.

So, are you counting individual verses now, is that what you consider the weight of Scripture to be? If you list 10 supporting your view, and I list 9 supporting my view, I lose? Do you expect me to believe that if I produced one more than you, you would come over to my side? Is that how you decide on the meaning of a particular part of Scripture? I know your response here is not referring to anything I said, but I’m just saying.

 

[simspt]

Are not we both surmising?
I made the statement from the history of communion being described in different ways and all were OK.
Yes, the elements are symbols/signs for the Body and Blood of the Lord.
Sounds good but we all participate in the Eucharist. Does not Eucharist, being Thanksgiving for Christ’s sacrifice, cover our views, that is both real presence /transubstantiation or spiritual/symbolic ? Can anyone *fully *apprehend the Lord and His graces, I mean even Paul did not though it was his heart’s desire.
Correct, and Wisdom, the close relative of Truth, says be careful for maybe He graces according to the heart and not the mind of the law. That is, maybe one can participate with perfect theology/law and yet receive less than one who is not in “fullness” but with a more appreciative heart>
The Lord will sift out the wheat and tares on this topic.By some definition, His, there is One Communion.

Blessings

Christians expressed the nature of the eucharistic elements using words like ‘figure’, ‘sign’ and ‘symbol’ or ‘type’. For example Cyril of Jerusalem states that Christ’s ‘body has been bestowed on you in the form (typos) of bread, and his blood in the form (typos) of wine’ and states that communicates ‘taste not bread and wine but the sign (antitypon) of Christ’s body and blood’. ( Mystagogical Catechesis 4.3; 5.20)Also Ambrose of Milan talks about the eucharistic prayer of his church spoke of the elements as being ‘the figure(figura) of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ’.(De sacramenis 4.21)

If one is looking to the patristic writers re the eucharistic elements and how they understood them then it’s necessary to look at them in there totality. Cyril also writes ‘Do not, then regard the bread and wine as nothing but bread and wine, for they are the body and blood of Christ as the master himself has proclaimed.’ (Mystagogical Catechesis 4.6) Again Justin uses strongly realistic language affirming the bread and wine were truly the body and blood Christ "For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; …the food over which thanks have been given by a word of prayer which is from him, (the food) from which our flesh and blood are fed by transformation, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus’ (1 Apol 66.1-2).

The ‘realistic’ language is older than the ‘symbolic’ language. For example the Church’s response to heretical docetism was counteracted by clear teaching on the the realism of the eucharist by Ignatius of Antioch when writing ‘To the Smyrnaeans 7.1’ stating that some ’ abstain from eucharist and prayer because they do not acknowledge the eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ which suffered for our sins and which the Father raised by his goodness’.

No contradiction was seen between saying that the bread and wine were the body and blood of Christ ‘spiritually’, ‘symbolically’, or ‘really’.

To deny the realism in place of an exclusively symbolic view doesn’t do justice to the NT or patristic writings

 

[Telstar]

In the discourse the Lord begins with the children of Israel eating manna , bread form heaven, and they died in the wilderness. Jesus says if you eat Him you shall not die like they did but live forever. Well, we eat Him and we all still die like the Israelites. He could not have been speaking literally, but spiritually, symbolically. Of course we die, but live forever spiritually, as did many of the Israelites who ate manna.

The manna that the Israelites ate in the desert was sent by God to feed their bodies and keep them alive, physically. That’s what Jesus meant when He said they still died. It was a precursor or “sign” in the OT of the true Bread of Life that Jesus promised to give to those who would believe in and follow Him. When Jesus fed the multitude by multiplying the loaves and fishes, that was also a precursor of the Holy Eucharist. However, many of those people only began to follow Him because He fed them, physically. They were the ones that He talked about later, who didn’t really believe in Him, but only followed Him for the free food.

But, the Holy Eucharist is both physical and spiritual food, that feeds the soul by being digested by the body. It is the True Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, that is only found in the Holy Eucharist of the Catholic Church. Our bodies actually absorb and become “one” with Jesus, both physically and spiritually. It is a complete mystery to all of us, just how that can happen, but Catholics believe it because that’s what Jesus said. Numerous miracles, and the visions of many Saints over the centuries, have confirmed that it’s absolutely true. That’s all the more reason for us to believe it.

Another words, you literally take the eating but ignore the dying you shall still suffer. So you switch from the literal (eating) to spiritual (living forever). Can not one take both spiritually, the eating and living forever ?

We will certainly all die, physically, even if we partake of the Eucharist. But, the purpose of partaking is to become one with Jesus for all eternity. The more faithfully we partake of the Holy Eucharist, the closer we begin to resemble Jesus, spiritually, by living our lives and acting more like Him. The key to this actually happening to us, is the faith that we have in Him when we receive His Body.

Those graces are always present in the Holy Eucharist from the moment of the Consecration at Mass, but not everyone is well disposed to receive them. Some people might benefit more than others, depending on the depth of their faith. Sadly, even some Catholics don’t realize the true gift that they receive in the Sacrament, and may not gain very many graces from it. But, the graces are always there, working in their souls, even if they are unaware of it.

The Holy Eucharist is the greatest gift that Jesus gave to us, other than laying down His life for us on the Cross. It’s the Sacrament that dispenses the sacrificial graces of the Crucifixion to the whole world. It benefits Christian souls who remain outside the Catholic Church, as well as those who have never even heard of Jesus, in ways that we will never fully understand until we’re in Heaven.

 

[benhur]

Hi Ben,

In return one could say 'you want to ignore the real physical eating through miracle (sign) that leads to followers wanting more real physical food because they just lived and experienced a man create food.

Also ignoring the rejection of Jesus by followers when the intent to get more real physical food from this food maker and blind guy healer turns out to be a wacko Bart Simpson response.

These followers later haggle over if an evil person heals, then go back to their old way of life.’

John’s gospel does not have a parable (or example) until the start of chapter 10, and only for the purpose of setting up the good shepherd teaching, which is back to no parables.

Take care,

Mike

Hi M,

Not sure I follow how I deny the feeding of 5 thousand or disciples leaving over a hard saying? They are both integral into why Jesus purposely “Simpson’ed” them.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I am sure it does. The graces from a Catholic or Eastern Church’s Holy Communion is much too powerful to translate. The Lord Jesus had told a Doctor of the Church, St. Gertrude that whenever someone receives Holy Communion in a state of Grace that He gives Graces to everyone on the planet (and to the departed as well). The graces from any reception of Holy Communion enables the Lord to dispense His graces as He sees fit.

OK Thank you. So maybe I can go to heaven for I was properly baptized, but His grace thru you/church covers me for not literally or properly partaking of communion ?

Blessings

 

[ffg]

Hi M,

Not sure I follow how I deny the feeding of 5 thousand or disciples leaving over a hard saying? They are both integral into why Jesus purposely “Simpson’ed” them.

Blessings

Thanks Benhur for the reply!

For clarity sake -

Then you believe Jesus meant what He said, but you think Jesus meant some form of spiritual ritual - and that the folks took off because they thought that what we might categorize as a blessing was too much to handle?

As a side note - I find it ironic that John shares that Jesus essentially had a similar conversation at the end of John 5, I think in preparation for John 6…

39 You search* the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.c
40 But you do not want to come to me to have life.

I just picture Jesus watching some guys thumbing through OT scrolls as he stands there patiently.

Take care,

Mike

 

[rcwitness]

OK Thank you. So maybe I can go to heaven for I was properly baptized, but His grace thru you/church covers me for not literally or properly partaking of communion ?

Blessings

All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819*"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274*Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[Telstar]

I have heard of the grace"bank" That every good deed, or prayer or indulgence adds to the church’s grace bank from which God may move on behalf of the church , in this world ? Is that what you reference ?

Do you remember when Jesus said, “Matthew 6: [19] Lay not up to yourselves treasures on earth: where the rust, and moth consume, and where thieves break through and steal. [20] But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven: where neither the rust nor moth doth consume, and where thieves do not break through, nor steal.” What do you suppose Jesus meant by this? Is there really some kind of treasury (bank) in Heaven? If there is, then how can we make any kind of ‘deposit’ into that treasury? And, if we can make a deposit, can we also make a withdrawal from it?

I believe this is what is referred to by Catholics as the ‘treasury of merit’. Every prayer or good deed that’s done adds to the treasury of merit. (This might also be represented in the Apocalypse by the book, or ledger, that is opened at the Last Judgement, which shows what good or evil an individual has done during their lifetime on earth.) In God’s infinite mercy, He may choose to “borrow” the extra merits from one person, to apply to the “debt” of another. Catholics believe that when we offer up our good deeds and prayers for the benefit of others, those are the ones that God will use to reduce their debt to Him. This is always done at the Mass when we say the Prayer of the Faithful:“In the Universal Prayer or Prayer of the Faithful, the people respond in some sense to the Word of God which they have received in faith and, exercising the office of their baptismal Priesthood, offer prayers to God for the salvation of all. It is desirable that there usually be such a form of prayer in Masses celebrated with the people, so that petitions may be offered for holy Church, for those who govern with authority over us, for those weighed down by various needs, for all humanity, and for the salvation of the whole world.”

 

[benhur]

described by individuals, right?

Hi rc.

Just church fathers (described communion from various understandings).

We do like to adhere ourselves to the official, confirmed description through the Magisterium.

And what is the evolution of such official confirmation ?

And still, there was no split of a valid communion until when?

probably when transubstantiation was defined, officially ?

Id like to say His true flesh and blood was the means which mankind received Reconciliation, eternal life, and His Holy Spirit.

Amen

No, there is one true Loaf. His Eucharist is a thanksgiving and a receiving Him into ourselves

Actually, I thought the Eucharist is thanksgiving for us being put into Him, the Body of Christ.

His Eucharist is bound to all that is professes through the Mass.

I just disagree with the sacrificial prayer, and the idea of us offering Christ back to the Father, in hopes of acceptance (and transubstantiation).

To reject some of these is to reject some of His Eucharist.

Yes, unless what is rejected is what was added.

No, we receive by faith and understanding comes by searching. Some have great understanding and other’s little.

No, you mentioned “total” communion,as in full understanding. I did not ask how we get understanding. I suggested can anyone have full apprehension of the matter, especially when it is promised to be fuller in the future, when we see Him face to face.

It is not our “appreciation heart” which consecrates His Eucharist, but it is our Appreciative Heart which brings us to His Eucharist, and even worthily!

I think it is both.but none are worthy on their own.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Our meager offerings of bread and wine,

I think those are elements,symbols of the ritual.They are not offerings, especially as bread and wine.

and our donations to the Church are offered in union with Christ’s one sacrifice, so that it is joined to His sacrifice,

Did not know monetary or gifts are part of Eucharist communion in CC.

You’ll see a similar notion in Colossian 1:24, where Paul speaks of his sufferings making up what is lacking in Christ’s sacrifice. It doesn’t mean that His sacrifice wasn’t sufficient, it means it lacks our participation with His sacrifice.

Col. quote is a stretch. Ministerial afflictions of the church and the Body of Christ are joined to Christ’s affliction, but not His atoning Calvary sacrifice. That is something different. We do not add to Calvary. But as He was afflicted in ministry , so are we. Do not see how this has anything to do with monetary offerings ,or our afflictions being offered at Eucharist. That is strictly thanking the Father for His giving us His Son in propitiation.

One of the ways we participate in His sacrifice is through our offerings which become united with His in the Mass.

OK. Just not sure I have seen it in communion consecratory prayers, but maybe there is one.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

How does one get damned to hell forever for a symbol?

You reject the symbol you reject the reality they represent.

 

[benhur]

Once again…"For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord."1 Cor.11:27

Paul received his teaching on the Eucharistic meal by a revelation of Jesus Christ directly, not from human teaching. Paul took this seriously, it was not a symbolic meal. Paul chastised the Corinthians for not taking it seriously, they were coming together and just eating their supper’s, instead of the Lord’s Supper. A symbol is not personal, it doesn’t bring us into direct contact with the actual physical flesh and blood of Jesus, this is why Paul states that participating in the Eucharist unworthily is “profaning the body and blood of the Lord.”

Again, this does not contradict other communion understandings. Any communion can be profaned.

A symbol can be very,very personal. The ickthys or fish adopted by early Christians for secrecy was very personal and could get you very personally killed if deciphered.

The elements of any ritual have meaning and are meant to be "personla,and as part of the ceremony rite.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

The manna that the Israelites ate in the desert was sent by God to feed their bodies and keep them alive, physically. That’s what Jesus meant when He said they still died.

Hi T,

Yes of course but in John 6:49,50 Jesus also said if you eat Him you would not die like them.
“Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died.
This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.”

They were the ones that He talked about later, who didn’t really believe in Him, but only followed Him for the free food.

Yes and more. Some wanted a King, or one to kick out Romans, or to heal them etc etc etc…How do you get rid of them? How do you derail them , for their possible salvation later ? By explaining the new covenant communion? A lecture on future transubstantiation ? Of course not.

But, the Holy Eucharist is both physical and spiritual food, that feeds the soul by being digested by the body.

Well, bread and wine do nourish the body, and of course Christ also feeds our spirit in Thanksgiving.

Numerous miracles, and the visions of many Saints over the centuries, have confirmed that it’s absolutely true. That’s all the more reason for us to believe it.

Again, the miracles were not to differentiate between tran and consubstantiation, or spiritual/symbolic nature but the reality behind the symbol, to non believers, to scoffers, or to those in need of a miracle.

We will certainly all die, physically, even if we partake of the Eucharist.

Just like those in the wilderness

.But, the purpose of partaking is to become one with Jesus for all eternity.

Yes but how do we partake, eat ? No, historically the earliest church partook to give thanks for that promise. Baptism makes us one with Jesus. Communion is giving thanks.

The more faithfully we partake of the Holy Eucharist, the closer we begin to resemble Jesus, spiritually, by living our lives and acting more like Him.

I would say the more we realize what we have to be thankful for in Christ the better.

The key to this actually happening to us, is the faith that we have in Him when we receive His Body.

The key is spiritual. Communion is spiritually discerned. What Christ did and will do for us is spiritually discerned.

But, the graces are always there, working in their souls, even if they are unaware of it.

Agreed and of the personal varying levels of spiritual discernment for what Christ did.

The Holy Eucharist is the greatest gift that Jesus gave to us, other than laying down His life for us on the Cross.

Not sure how it stands with regeneration, baptism in the Holy Spirit, and the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the Church, the Body, and scriptures etc. Certainly it is for us this Christ given ceremony, or as you say “sacrament”.

It’s the Sacrament that dispenses the sacrificial graces of the Crucifixion to the whole world.

Do not follow that. It’s foreshadower, the Passover in Judaism, was not to dispense grace to the world (though Judaism in itself was to do so, as Christianity, the Body/Church does today).

It benefits Christian souls who remain outside the Catholic Church, as well as those who have never even heard of Jesus, in ways that we will never fully understand until we’re in Heaven

Yes, thank you. Did not know CC teaches that, but several of you have posted it now.(chimo)

Blessings

 

[chimo]

OK Thank you. So maybe I can go to heaven for I was properly baptized, but His grace thru you/church covers me for not literally or properly partaking of communion ?

Blessings

I am sure we are all receiving many graces from other sources as well but the power of the Eucharist as celebrated in the Catholic and Eastern Churches has the ability to give more than just the one who receives. The Sun for instance shines on everyone so the Graces coming forth from the Son of God through Eucharistic celebrations is much like this. This does not mean everyone responds well to these graces. Some do well others do not. God has a problem with the proud but to the humble He grants even more. Perhaps to the proud God waits for an opening so He can give to them without hesitation. Not everyone’s disposition has this sense of gratefulness. Yet if the Lord who knows your heart better than anyone and knows if His grace will be able to penetrate you to respond well than He will not refuse to give it to you. Perhaps the Lord gives to the proud as well but they do not respond to do better. The graces coming from the Lord is never wasted. If they do not penetrate someone who is proud than they (the graces) will go to someone else. As I said earlier the Sun shines on all but not all respond to the Sun in the same way.

 

[benhur]

Christians expressed the nature of the eucharistic elements using words like ‘figure’, ‘sign’ and ‘symbol’ or ‘type’. For example Cyril of Jerusalem states that Christ’s ‘body has been bestowed on you in the form (typos) of bread, and his blood in the form (typos) of wine’ and states that communicates ‘taste not bread and wine but the sign (antitypon) of Christ’s body and blood’. ( Mystagogical Catechesis 4.3; 5.20)Also Ambrose of Milan talks about the eucharistic prayer of his church spoke of the elements as being ‘the figure(figura) of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ’.(De sacramenis 4.21)

If one is looking to the patristic writers re the eucharistic elements and how they understood them then it’s necessary to look at them in there totality. Cyril also writes ‘Do not, then regard the bread and wine as nothing but bread and wine, for they are the body and blood of Christ as the master himself has proclaimed.’ (Mystagogical Catechesis 4.6) Again Justin uses strongly realistic language affirming the bread and wine were truly the body and blood Christ "For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; …the food over which thanks have been given by a word of prayer which is from him, (the food) from which our flesh and blood are fed by transformation, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus’ (1 Apol 66.1-2).

Hi s’

Thank you. Yes, all forms of communion seem to have been expressed.

The ‘realistic’ language is older than the ‘symbolic’ language. For example the Church’s response to heretical docetism was counteracted by clear teaching on the the realism of the eucharist by Ignatius of Antioch when writing ‘To the Smyrnaeans 7.1’ stating that some ’ abstain from eucharist and prayer because they do not acknowledge the eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ which suffered for our sins and which the Father raised by his goodness’.

I beg to differ. They were all ‘together’’. None was “first” . That Ignatius meant transubstantiation is disputed. Ignatius debated the Gnostics, who denied not only the symbol of the elements, but the reality behind them. Tertullian makes similar argument against Gnostics,

“then,having taken the bread and given it to the disciples, He made it His own body by saying , “This is my body”, that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body” (Against Marcion,BK4)

Blessings