If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?

[rcwitness]

No it is worship. Thanksgiving and praise is worship. Not sure if "remembrance’’ is worship , like was/is the Passover ceremony "worship’’, not sure. Yes we worship because we believe but though He be pleased and gets the glory is believing “worship” ?

So your belief is that Jesus commanded us to make an image (bread wine) of His body and blood, and symbolically act out the worship of these things which is the outward sign of what we are doing internally?

It’s really so close to our belief. We just believe that there is a reality of His Spiritual union with the bread and wine which contains the unseen depth of His nature.

Just like His glorious nature was hidden from those who saw but did not believe, so too is this hidden at His Eucharist communion.

And also like the glorious nature of God is hidden in all of creation, but when we consider Jesus’ flesh as a Spiritual food, then we can benefit from His life.

 

[eddie_too]

spiritual communion is neither the same as receiving the Holy Eucharist, nor is spiritual communion (wherein we unite with the Lord only in a spiritual sense) superior to total communion wherein we unite fully with the Lord. Jesus in not simply a spirit. Jesus also has a physical body.

obviously, those who do not believe that they can be in total communion with Jesus through the Blessed Sacrament can neither understand nor experience the benefits and graces received through total communion with the Lord.

what the Lord did when He instituted the Holy Eucharist was to provide each of His followers a small taste of what their relationship with Him in heaven will be like. our relationship with the Lord in heaven will be complete union with Him. we will be united to Him totally, in every aspect of being including His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity eternally.

while eternal union must wait for heaven, the same union is given to us for a short time (so long as the bread and wine possess their physical appearance) here on earth through the receiving of the consecrated Host and/or Chalice.

for spiritual union with Christ, there is no need to participate in symbolic celebrations. spiritual union with Christ is accomplished and experienced through a variety of means. for example, prayer, meditation, contemplation, almsgiving, personal sacrifices and acts of charity all create spiritual union with Christ is they are performed in His Name and with a desire to be united to Him. this too Jesus knew and understood. Jesus also understood that being with Him spiritually is different from being with Him totally. Jesus wanted to maximize His graces in our lives, ergo the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the reception of Holy Communion.

 

[rcwitness]

I think it in terms of, " Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me, to give to every man according to his work" at end of Rev. We will receive rewards in heaven. Do not think it grace to be applied when needed as an "account’’. We have an account, our good works in Christ yes, which will be judged and rewarded or burned accordingly at the judgement seat of Christ, where He judges all believers.

Blessings

I tend to see it more this way too. In fact, that verse came to my mind as well.

But there are deeper aspects to the other perspective which should not derail this thread.

 

[JMM1957]

Yes but in the form of bread and wine. I mean you do not deny it still is bread and wine to the senses , but add a spiritual reality of the full Christ. Even Jesus calls the cup "wine"after consecration at the last Supper

“But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
Matt26:29

Blessings

He also says just before that, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”

The account of the Last Supper in Mark also says “This is my blood of the covenant.”

The account of the Last Supper in Luke also says “This cup is the new covenant in my blood.”

Jesus calls it the fruit of the vine because that is what He requires us to use in the Eucharistic celebration, both wine and bread. It was not some other kind of drink or food, but wine and bread only. In Matt. 26:29 which you mentioned, Jesus was saying that the table fellowship that he had with his disciples would be interrupted by his death, but that a new table fellowship would occur at the banquet of the kingdom of his Father.

A slight change of subject, but can I ask what your view is on the many Eucharistic Miracles that have occured over the centuries?

 

[rcwitness]

spiritual communion is neither the same as receiving the Holy Eucharist, nor is spiritual communion (wherein we unite with the Lord only in a spiritual sense) superior to total communion wherein we unite fully with the Lord. Jesus in not simply a spirit. Jesus also has a physical body.

obviously, those who do not believe that they can be in total communion with Jesus through the Blessed Sacrament can neither understand nor experience the benefits and graces received through total communion with the Lord.

what the Lord did when He instituted the Holy Eucharist was to provide each of His followers a small taste of what their relationship with Him in heaven will be like. our relationship with the Lord in heaven will be complete union with Him. we will be united to Him totally, in every aspect of being including His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity eternally.

while eternal union must wait for heaven, the same union is given to us for a short time (so long as the bread and wine possess their physical appearance) here on earth through the receiving of the consecrated Host and/or Chalice.

for spiritual union with Christ, there is no need to participate in symbolic celebrations. spiritual union with Christ is accomplished and experienced through a variety of means. for example, prayer, meditation, contemplation, almsgiving, personal sacrifices and acts of charity all create spiritual union with Christ is they are performed in His Name and with a desire to be united to Him. this too Jesus knew and understood. Jesus also understood that being with Him spiritually is different from being with Him totally. Jesus wanted to maximize His graces in our lives, ergo the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the reception of Holy Communion.

I hear ya. I agree there is a big difference in the two communions.

And you acknowledged some real sanctification through various spiritual practices.

The most important Sacrament after His Eucharistic participation is Baptism. Through Baptism all Christians have a real unity. Then there is the devotion to Sacred Scriptures which can compell us to faithfulness.

In all these practices/observances/devotions must be true belief with Charity for His life to be beneficial/edifying/overcoming within us. And it is His Spirit which guides all true belief unto Charity and conversion of heart.

Does He do ALL of this ONLY after we eat His Eucharist? No.
Has He begun this work through His flesh and blood and desire to see it through in our participating in His Eucharist? Yes!

If one continues to ask, “what about us Christians who don’t receive His Eucharist?” then we are dangerously putting God to the test. Because it is mere invisible ignorance keeping one still sanctified who does not follow His command to receive. For once someone has been convicted, they can then turn away from Him.

And just as Jesus was with us and telling them they must eat His flesh and blood which He would provide, it is now the Bride who stands and says, “come and eat what He has provided.”

 

[PRmerger]

He is also the Door, the gate, the Good Shepherd, the Rock, etc.

Is there any reference to his disciples leaving Him when he said He was any of these things because of it being such a “hard saying”?

 

[benhur]

Is there any reference to his disciples leaving Him when he said He was any of these things because of it being such a “hard saying”?

Hi PR,

Nope, because they do not suggest the Crucifixion nor Ascension. That is, you could still follow Him with those names for wrong reasons(bread, Davidic Kingdom setup etc ).

Blesings

 

[benhur]

I tend to see it more this way too. In fact, that verse came to my mind as well.

But there are deeper aspects to the other perspective which should not derail this thread.

Good of you say and is encouraging .

Blessings

 

[benhur]

So your belief is that Jesus commanded us to make an image (bread wine) of His body and blood, and symbolically act out the worship of these things which is the outward sign of what we are doing internally?

It’s really so close to our belief. We just believe that there is a reality of His Spiritual union with the bread and wine which contains the unseen depth of His nature.

Just like His glorious nature was hidden from those who saw but did not believe, so too is this hidden at His Eucharist communion.

And also like the glorious nature of God is hidden in all of creation, but when we consider Jesus’ flesh as a Spiritual food, then we can benefit from His life.

Something like that. Would not use word “image” as perhaps ceremonial elements, covenant elements, like the lamb/bread was at Passover. Yes, understand you (CC) have both symbolic and real presence understanding. I would also not rule out a spiritual connection with the symbolic view also. Blessings

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PR,

Nope, because they do not suggest the Crucifixion nor Ascension. That is, you could still follow Him with those names for wrong reasons(bread, Davidic Kingdom setup etc ).

Blesings

Why does that matter that they don’t suggest the Crucifixion/Ascension?

What verse tells you that they didn’t leave Him when He spoke of being a vine, a door because it doesn’t suggest Crucifixion/Ascension?

And what verse tells you that His saying His disciples had to eat His flesh suggests the Crucifixion/Ascension?

 

[benhur]

He also says just before that, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.”

The account of the Last Supper in Mark also says “This is my blood of the covenant.”

The account of the Last Supper in Luke also says “This cup is the new covenant in my blood.”

Jesus calls it the fruit of the vine because that is what He requires us to use in the Eucharistic celebration, both wine and bread. It was not some other kind of drink or food, but wine and bread only. In Matt. 26:29 which you mentioned, Jesus was saying that the table fellowship that he had with his disciples would be interrupted by his death, but that a new table fellowship would occur at the banquet of the kingdom of his Father.

A slight change of subject, but can I ask what your view is on the many Eucharistic Miracles that have occured over the centuries?

Yes, agree to the Lord’s words. Thus we have the conundrum of Him saying it His body and blood when it clearly also remains wine and bread. The figurative is quite appropriate under the circumstances.

As far as miracles from post #339: “Again, the miracles were not to differentiate between tran and consubstantiation, or spiritual/symbolic nature but the reality behind the symbol, to non believers, to scoffers, or to those in need of a miracle.” That is one reply that could be given.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

Something like that. Would not use word “image” as perhaps ceremonial elements, covenant elements, like the lamb/bread was at Passover. Yes, understand you (CC) have both symbolic and real presence understanding. I would also not rule out a spiritual connection with the symbolic view also. Blessings

The lamb at passover was not mere symbolism either. Definitely a type of the infinitely greater sacrifice Jesus would give for the New Covenant. But the Israelite were commanded to kill, place the blood , and eat. This was done for a sacrifice. The blood of these lambs had worth in God’s eyes. Of course the state of the individual had to reflect the purpose as well, but not for the purpose of the plague not touching them.

 

[benhur]

Why does that matter that they don’t suggest the Crucifixion/Ascension?

What verse tells you that they didn’t leave Him when He spoke of being a vine, a door because it doesn’t suggest Crucifixion/Ascension?

And what verse tells you that His saying His disciples had to eat His flesh suggests the Crucifixion/Ascension?

Because that is what Jesus pretty much says and specifically mentions the Ascension . Are you saying that somehwere in the discourse is not a veiled reference to His death ? Can you eat someone who is alive ?. No it matters.

“When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”
John 6:61,2

We all know what preceeded the Ascension, and what we are to remember in thanksgiving.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

The lamb at passover was not mere symbolism either. Definitely a type of the infinitely greater sacrifice Jesus would give for the New Covenant. But the Israelite were commanded to kill, place the blood , and eat. This was done for a sacrifice. The blood of these lambs had worth in God’s eyes. Of course the state of the individual had to reflect the purpose as well, but not for the purpose of the plague not touching them.

Right, we eat the symbol elements also. Plus they do as they did to remember and do as they did (almost) on the first night the original Passover. Not sure it was a "sacrifice’’ in traditional sense. However, they do not think the ceremonial elements are the originals via consecration. No priest is (was) needed. They do try to convey the same spirit however.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

Right, we eat the symbol elements also. Plus they do as they did to remember and do as they did (almost) on the first night the original Passover. Not sure it was a "sacrifice’’ in traditional sense. However, they do not think the ceremonial elements are the originals via consecration. No priest is (was) needed. They do try to convey the same spirit however.

Blessings

Ok, fair enough, I won’t pretend to know more than I do about that yearly memorial.

I am under the impression that the night of the passover those lamb’s blood was efective, and they ate it’s flesh as commanded.

That sacrifice (and I would call it a sacrifice) had a certain amount of power… for that particular event.

Christ’s sacrifice holds much more! Even to eternal life for us and those of old. So the sacrifice that benefits us is also delivered to us.

I wonder if those in Abraham’s bosom were given His Eucharist. Not even sure if it would matter one way or the other as to the Catholic position.

 

[PRmerger]

Because that is what Jesus pretty much says and specifically mentions the Ascension . Are you saying that somehwere in the discourse is not a veiled reference to His death ? Can you eat someone who is alive ?. No it matters.

“When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”
John 6:61,2

We all know what preceeded the Ascension, and what we are to remember in thanksgiving.

Blessings

Fair enough,

So you are saying now that the disciples left Jesus over the “hard saying” that he was going to die, and not that he said He was the Bread of Life?

That’s why they didn’t leave when He said He was a vine or a door because it didn’t reference His death?

 

[Billy_Buescher]

My wife is a Baptist, has been her whole life.

She has been taught that baptism, is only symbolic, just for show so show that the person has joined the church, and the Lords supper is symbolic, that we are remembering what Jesus did at the Last Supper.

 

[PRmerger]

My wife is a Baptist, has been her whole life.

She has been taught that baptism, is only symbolic, just for show so show that the person has joined the church, and the Lords supper is symbolic, that we are remembering what Jesus did at the Last Supper.

Have you tried to explain to her that no Church taught this for the first 1500 years of Christianity?

 

[rcwitness]

Have you tried to explain to her that no Church taught this for the first 1500 years of Christianity?

Or just go through the Scriptures with her to see that the Church’s Teachings line up.

 

[eazyduzit]

spiritual communion is neither the same as receiving the Holy Eucharist, nor is spiritual communion (wherein we unite with the Lord only in a spiritual sense) superior to total communion wherein we unite fully with the Lord. Jesus in not simply a spirit. Jesus also has a physical body.

obviously, those who do not believe that they can be in total communion with Jesus through the Blessed Sacrament can neither understand nor experience the benefits and graces received through total communion with the Lord.

what the Lord did when He instituted the Holy Eucharist was to provide each of His followers a small taste of what their relationship with Him in heaven will be like. our relationship with the Lord in heaven will be complete union with Him. we will be united to Him totally, in every aspect of being including His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity eternally.

while eternal union must wait for heaven, the same union is given to us for a short time (so long as the bread and wine possess their physical appearance) here on earth through the receiving of the consecrated Host and/or Chalice.

for spiritual union with Christ, there is no need to participate in symbolic celebrations. spiritual union with Christ is accomplished and experienced through a variety of means. for example, prayer, meditation, contemplation, almsgiving, personal sacrifices and acts of charity all create spiritual union with Christ is they are performed in His Name and with a desire to be united to Him. this too Jesus knew and understood. Jesus also understood that being with Him spiritually is different from being with Him totally. Jesus wanted to maximize His graces in our lives, ergo the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the reception of Holy Communion.

If logic serves, what you have claimed is contrary to what Jesus says in v.63 “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life” .

Enjoy the Lord today