If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?

[rcwitness]

for me the eucharist comes down to Jesus said it, I believe it.

Jesus said this is My Body. Jesus said this is My blood. I refuse to consider the possibility that Jesus was being clever or deceptive or mysterious or confusing. He said it. He told us to do the same thing. when Jesus tells me, this is My Body, that is enough.

Yes, also the only way we know He is there is through complete faith, BECAUSE he said it. We believe He chose to feed us in this way.

 

[JMM1957]

for me the eucharist comes down to Jesus said it, I believe it.

Jesus said this is My Body. Jesus said this is My blood. I refuse to consider the possibility that Jesus was being clever or deceptive or mysterious or confusing. He said it. He told us to do the same thing. when Jesus tells me, this is My Body, that is enough.

Yes, I agree. You must take the words of Jesus literally as spoken. Those that go to great lengths trying to explain what the Eucharist isn’t, are only complicating things unnecessarily, and unfortunately are not grasping a very central teaching of the Christian faith.

 

[benhur]

Here is a good Word to bring confidence in the Catholic Eucharist.

Col 2:9 “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily…”

Although the primary context is His divinity, the Incarnation of the second person of the Godhead.

 

[benhur]

for me the eucharist comes down to Jesus said it, I believe it.

Jesus said this is My Body. Jesus said this is My blood. I refuse to consider the possibility that Jesus was being clever or deceptive or mysterious or confusing. He said it. He told us to do the same thing. when Jesus tells me, this is My Body, that is enough.

I appreciate your belief, but figurative speech is not “clever, deceptive” and need not be “confusing”. If anything, transubstantiation can thought of as clever, even borrowing from Greek thinking,and confusing, to some.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Yes, I agree. You must take the words of Jesus literally as spoken. Those that go to great lengths trying to explain what the Eucharist isn’t, are only complicating things unnecessarily, and unfortunately are not grasping a very central teaching of the Christian faith.

JMM,

Thank you for sharing but for many transubstantive eucharist is not a very central teaching of the Christian faith. Eucharisting (Thanksgiving/Communion) yes, but not necessarily in that (trans…) form.

Great lengths are what Aquinas and others have done with their explanations, even Augustine ( and as to the latter most come away thinking he is describing their form of communion)

Blessings

 

[JMM1957]

JMM,

Thank you for sharing but for many transubstantive eucharist is not a very central teaching of the Christian faith. Eucharisting (Thanksgiving/Communion) yes, but not necessarily in that (trans…) form.

Great lengths are what Aquinas and others have done with their explanations, even Augustine ( and as to the latter most come away thinking he is describing their form of communion)

Blessings

Where else in Scripture does the Lord Jesus say “Do this in memory of me”? So, I would say the Eucharist has great importance in the Christian life.

The CCC says: 1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.”

 

[eddie_too]

there are at least 16 different language uses that are included in the term “figurative speech”.

saying Jesus used figurative speech at the last supper is nearly meaningless and is either intended to be misleading or is being used by someone who lacks command of the English language and does not realize the many different ways in which speech can be figurative.

which use of language are you referring to benhur when you describe the Lord’s words as figurative speech? symbolic usage, metaphorical usage, understatement, irony, etc., etc. etc.? perhaps you mean, when you say figurative speech, any kind of speech except literal? that is not a very precise, scholarly or supportable concept in my opinion, and by its very imprecision and vagueness makes a response impossible.

taken in context, everything about the Last Supper indicates the Lord was speaking literally. there is nothing in the accounts that indicate He was using any type of figurative speech. if you cannot believe that Jesus willed a miracle, of course you have to land on saying He was speaking figuratively (although as I pointed out earlier, that is nearly meaningless since figurative speech has myriad ways of being used).

 

[benhur]

Where else in Scripture does the Lord Jesus say “Do this in memory of me”? So, I would say the Eucharist has great importance in the Christian life.

Agreed to your first post that eucharisting is a very central teaching of the Christian faith. I would even agree here that it is “great”. Just disagree on your (CC’s) qualification of transubstantiation.

The CCC says: 1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.”

Well the source and summit of our new covenant is not the “remembrance” , but the actual once and for all Calvary and His eminent return.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

there are at least 16 different language uses that are included in the term “figurative speech”.

saying Jesus used figurative speech at the last supper is nearly meaningless and is either intended to be misleading or is being used by someone who lacks command of the English language and does not realize the many different ways in which speech can be figurative.

which use of language are you referring to benhur when you describe the Lord’s words as figurative speech? symbolic usage, metaphorical usage, understatement, irony, etc., etc. etc.? perhaps you mean, when you say figurative speech, any kind of speech except literal? that is not a very precise, scholarly or supportable concept in my opinion, and by its very imprecision and vagueness makes a response impossible.

taken in context, everything about the Last Supper indicates the Lord was speaking literally. there is nothing in the accounts that indicate He was using any type of figurative speech. if you cannot believe that Jesus willed a miracle, of course you have to land on saying He was speaking figuratively (although as I pointed out earlier, that is nearly meaningless since figurative speech has myriad ways of being used).

Well then are you also speaking to all before us who used the term, “in the figure of” , including some early fathers. Were they being “vague and meaningless” ?

Also why would anyone ever use figurative speech if the context could not dictate proper meaning ? Yet it must be quite popular if there are 16 different ways of being “imprecise”.

it is not that I disbelief a miracle, rather the figurative does not need a miracle and glories in the reality represented.

Blessings

 

[eddie_too]

you were trying to make a point. you used the term “figurative speech” in trying to make your point. all I asked is what element of figurative speech were you implying the Lord was using? it is not a hard question but it is impossible to respond to your point if you are not going to be more precise.

if it was your intent to make it impossible to respond to your point, so be it.

 

[JMM1957]

Agreed to your first post that eucharisting is a very central teaching of the Christian faith. I would even agree here that it is “great”. Just disagree on your (CC’s) qualification of transubstantiation.
Well the source and summit of our new covenant is not the “remembrance” , but the actual once and for all Calvary and His eminent return.

Blessings

The reason the CC had to qualify precisely what the Eucharist is, is because of people with your understanding of it.

 

[JMM1957]

it is not that I disbelief a miracle, rather the figurative does not need a miracle and glories in the reality represented.

Blessings

The reality is, that it **IS **Jesus’ body and blood as He instructed us in John 6:53-56, and in all three of the synoptic accounts of the the Last Supper.

 

[zz912]

Well the source and summit of our new covenant is not the “remembrance” , but the actual once and for all Calvary and His eminent return.

Blessings

How is one enrolled in or enter into this new covenant? What must one do as a part of this new covenant? How do you take part in the new covenant?

 

[benhur]

you were trying to make a point. you used the term “figurative speech” in trying to make your point. all I asked is what element of figurative speech were you implying the Lord was using? it is not a hard question but it is impossible to respond to your point if you are not going to be more precise.

if it was your intent to make it impossible to respond to your point, so be it.

What might help in what manner does the CC also (besides literal body and blood) state that the elements are also symbols ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

How is one enrolled in or enter into this new covenant? What must one do as a part of this new covenant? How do you take part in the new covenant?

Be born again, and pronounce by going under water in baptism, that as Christ died, entered the grave but rose again on the third day, so we too have new life by faith in Him. We eucharist not to enroll as you say, but give thanksgiving that we have been enrolled, because of the grace of God thru Calvary. We remember what baptism signifies for us, the most pivotal moment in human history , Calvary. For behold, that God so loved Ben Hur, and zz, and all here, that He gave His only Son…

Blessings

 

[eddie_too]

benhur, figurative always means not literal but it contains multiple ways in which language can be considered non-literal.

here is a website that explains it: ehow.com/about_5372289_figurative-speech.html

 

[benhur]

The reality is, that it **IS **Jesus’ body and blood as He instructed us in John 6:53-56, and in all three of the synoptic accounts of the the Last Supper.

Well, it was instituted for our sake, to remember, and that, His shed blood forging the new covenant. Just in the remembrance, and in the giving of thanks we are strengthened, for by our testimony we overcome, and God inhabits the praise of His people. But it begins with the remembrance. Jesus does not say eat to be strengthened directly, but to remember, till His return.

The reality for all partakers in communion is remembrance of Calvary, what the elements symbolize, represent, are a figure of. Where we differ is the understanding that it must also be a literal eating of His fleshly body and blood and divinity.

We both share a foundational reality, but one says there has been a detraction from the full understanding by the other , and the other replies says there has been an unnecessary addition to the understanding.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

benhur, figurative always means not literal but it contains multiple ways in which language can be considered non-literal.

here is a website that explains it: ehow.com/about_5372289_figurative-speech.html

Yes, took a look, thanks. The context , that is the sentence in which the "figure’’ is used, gives the type. The web site simply gave the "figure’ in a sentence to determine or to show which type of figurative speech is used. So I would say when Jesus says He is the Bread of Life, it is the metaphorical figure of speech.

Blessings

 

[eddie_too]

how about when Jesus says “This is My Body”? what figurative type of language is that?

 

[zz912]

Be born again, and pronounce by going under water in baptism, that as Christ died, entered the grave but rose again on the third day, so we too have new life by faith in Him. We eucharist not to enroll as you say, but give thanksgiving that we have been enrolled, because of the grace of God thru Calvary. We remember what baptism signifies for us, the most pivotal moment in human history , Calvary. For behold, that God so loved Ben Hur, and zz, and all here, that He gave His only Son…

Blessings

So in the Old Covenant, baby boys had their foreskins cut off to enroll them in the covenant. In the New Covenant, you are enrolled by an emotional reaction?

How often do you “eucharist”, and what does it consist of?