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benhur
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Cool thanks never knew that
If John 6 is speaking of the eucharist, how can non Catholics be saved?
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benhur
Guest
Yes understand that.and like all giftings, it is God working thru us.
Again, is God exclusive in whom He works thru in that transformation ?
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Blessings
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zz912
Guest
Could you explain the differences you believe there exist in the two words? I can use different words and mean the same thing, such as rock or stone. Can you show that these two words mean different things?
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zz912
Guest
Yes. Simon Magus learned that lesson.
The sacrament of Confirmation we see in Acts shows that only the bishops (John and Peter) could confer it. Philip, who was a deacon and not a priest, could not confer the sacrament of Confirmation, only Baptism. So they sent John and Peter to give them Confirmation.
Acts 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, **they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.**
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
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Peter_J
Guest
Okay. Which goes back to my point: if you agree with that, then it seems strange that you describe yourself as Protestant.
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benhur
Guest
From Blue letter Bible:
Hiereus=a priest, one who offers sacrifices and in general in busied with sacred rites, used 32 times in NT and usually not for any church offices
Presbyteros= members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men),
or of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably,used 72 times
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benhur
Guest
Most would say Philip was not an "apostle’’. Some say this was done to keep unity in the church under apostolic leadership (for thousands received the gift of the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands). Some also say the apostles needed to “see” this, that Samaritans were not “unclean” but are called of God equally. Others say Philip had not heard of Pentecost, nor of baptism/ giftings of the Holy Ghost.
Again,do not think it had anything to with with "priests’’.
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Ok sorry I was not concise again, but yes, you were right the first time, that is what I say Catholics say.Okay. Which goes back to my point: if you agree with that, then it seems strange that you describe yourself as Protestant.
Blessings
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Alex_H
Guest
At the time of the conversation? Well, this was just a few weeks ago so I would still be 21.
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benhur
Guest
When did you start being drawn to Catholicism ?At the time of the conversation? Well, this was just a few weeks ago so I would still be 21.
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rcwitness
Guest
Including the Catholic Church, I’m pretty sure. Yet, Ananais (who Baptized and Confirmed Paul) was an Apostle. Not one of the Twelve, obviously, but perhaps one of the seventy.
The Holy Spirit descends on one’s Baptism, when the Holy Spirit is called on. But this was an incomplete Trinitarian Baptism. Though not by fault of rejection of Apostolic Teaching, just lacking accurate knowlege. See verse 16
I believe this wasn’t so much of “needing an Apostle/ Bishop for Confirmation” as needing an Apostle for completing a valid Trinitarian Baptism. But nevertheless, it was most likely also a Confirmation.
This is also just my opinion, but I’m not sure the priesthood was distinct from Apostles/Bishops at this point. The ministerial priesthood is in the Apostles and who they ordain as Bishops/overseers. The Priests are ordained, as presbyters, who by extention of the authority of the Bishops, are given authority to administer Sacraments.
Don’t know if that is a very accurate understanding, so maybe I could be corrected by some more knowledgeable Catholics here.
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Alex_H
Guest
Not long ago. Perhaps a month ago.
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benhur
Guest
OK. Would add that an apostle is one who is sent so, in a way Philip was an apostle , even disciple.
But then there is the gift of the Holy Ghost , as per your Confirmation. Did the many folks who were baptized by Jesus , and His disciples, before Pentecost, have to be baptized in the Holy Ghost after Pentecost ? Not sure if the problem was trinitarian verbage or not, for they were "believers’’ , and I would say properly baptized as such. Or did the apostles baptize differently before and after Pentecost ?
AS you may gather , I prefer “presbyter” over the word priest. Agree in offices as you state of apostles and bishops/presbyters. As to sole authority over sacraments is another topic.
Blessings
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rcwitness
Guest
We agree an Apostle is one “sent”. Do you agree that an Apostle was “sent” by Jesus, personally? I’m not sure where you are getting your information that Philip was personally “sent” by Jesus, as opposed to a believer preaching about Jesus, or even a deacon ordained by an early Bishop.
Apostles were set apart by Christ, Himself, such as the twelve and the seventy, and Paul. Barnabas was maybe a seventy? And the twelve, were even apart from the seventy, and Peter was even apart from the eleven!
The Samaritans were not Baptized again, in the Holy Spirit. The Apostles prayed for them, and laid their hands on them. They Confirmed them in the faith and called on the Holy Spirit on their behalf. Their sins were forgiven through their belief and Baptism in the name of Jesus. And they were received into the mystical body of Jesus. I don’t think the Apostles were Baptizing in the name of the Trinity before Pentecost. But it’s possible, because Jesus did give this commission at the end of His ministry and before His death. I just believe that they did not act on it until Pentecost.
Right. And I’m not knowledgeable enough in this distinction of office and it’s roots to engage much. And, as you say… another topic.
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