If Jos. Smith didn't write the Book of Mormon, Who did?

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Back to the topic! And I really need to take a break from this, but I can see this book of Long Journey’s is getting interesting! LG says, [partly based on the *rejection of the idea that Joseph Smith was all evil, which I agree with after reading Brodies book] (pp.15-16):

The sequence of events postulated by this theory is:
Code:
 1) Solomon Spalding wrote "Manuscript Found"
 2) He took it to Pittsburgh to inquire about publication
 3) Sidney Rigdon stole it
 4) Sidney Rigdon spent the next ten years reviewing and revising it, undergoing a religious conversion experience in the process
 5) Signey Rigdon could not publish it, because he was the prime suspect in the theft of the manuscript
 6) Signey Rigdon's friends found someone who would be willing to proclaim authorship and publish it.  Sidney accepted Joseph Smith, because his worldview reflected many aspects of the manuscript 
 7) Sidney Rigdon's friends carried it from the Rigdon home to the Smith Home
 8) Joseph edited it into final copy
 9) When the first 116 pages were lost, Smith and his team wrote a new beginning, which has the same content one would expect given what we know about Smith and Rigdon, including their Masonic associations.  In the first books of this collection of works, there is minimal Spaulding
Well, thats so fascinating I had to reprint it here. The rest of the 500+ page book is going to lay out the facts that support that theory. Skimming ahead, there as an interesting chart there, with all those stripes, dipicting how much was Spaulding, how much was KJ’s New and Old Testament, etc. Long Journey, can you post that here? *

Okay, I have a laundry load to finish, cat-litter, pick up Mom, and vaccum, order new cell phone, go bank, and vaccum! Thats just the start of it! Gotta go!*
 
Back to the topic! And I really need to take a break from this, but I can see this book of Long Journey’s is getting interesting! LG says, [partly based on the *rejection
of the idea that Joseph Smith was all evil, which I agree with after reading Brodies book] (pp.15-16):

The sequence of events postulated by this theory is:
Code:
 1) Solomon Spalding wrote "Manuscript Found"
 2) He took it to Pittsburgh to inquire about publication
 3) Sidney Rigdon stole it
 4) Sidney Rigdon spent the next ten years reviewing and revising it, undergoing a religious conversion experience in the process
 5) Signey Rigdon could not publish it, because he was the prime suspect in the theft of the manuscript
 6) Signey Rigdon's friends found someone who would be willing to proclaim authorship and publish it.  Sidney accepted Joseph Smith, because his worldview reflected many aspects of the manuscript 
 7) Sidney Rigdon's friends carried it from the Rigdon home to the Smith Home
 8) Joseph edited it into final copy
 9) When the first 116 pages were lost, Smith and his team wrote a new beginning, which has the same content one would expect given what we know about Smith and Rigdon, including their Masonic associations.  In the first books of this collection of works, there is minimal Spaulding
Well, thats so fascinating I had to reprint it here. The rest of the 500+ page book is going to lay out the facts that support that theory. Skimming ahead, there as an interesting chart there, with all those stripes, dipicting how much was Spaulding, how much was KJ’s New and Old Testament, etc. Long Journey, can you post that here? *

Okay, I have a laundry load to finish, cat-litter, pick up Mom, and vaccum, order new cell phone, go bank, and vaccum! Thats just the start of it! Gotta go!*

I’d just concentrate on Criddle’s essay. It’s a lot shorter than 500 pages.
 
LOLs Yeah. Broadhurst and Criddle laid the groundwork. Mine is broader, looking at other sources for those who refuse to swallow Spalding.

That chart with the colored bands is Broadhurst’s pioneering work examining phrases in common between the BoM and the surviving example of Spalding’s writing.
 
Here I am, can’t help but read, while supper simmers briefly. Just found this gem on the Rigdon site linked on this thread [and Long Journey, I am going to read yours next; this one’s shorter]:

**…how likely is it that Joseph Smith spoke with God and translated The Book of Mormon from plates of gold? Devoted and thoughtful Mormons will feel that they have adequately reviewed the evidence and are justified in believing to a probability of near 100% that these events occurred. Virtually all non-Mormons who have reviewed the same evidence conclude that the probability is close to 0%. **

Exactly! Strange, isn’t it? It tells you, “Something is amyss!” This is the kind of thing that makes me want to research Mormonism. I want to find out the reasons for the strange dichotomy!

And I think it holds a clue as to one reason we argue so much on these Mormon threads.

I am making a huge zucchini stirfry to go with the salad. I keep walking around with “zero’s” over my head lately!

P.S. Long Journey, interesting that this author includes a discussion on “cognitive dissodance” in his intro!!
 
…come to my house? 😃
LOL! I used to be a much fancier cook! I keep it simple now. One reason is I was forced to. My mom “reorganizes” the kitchen constantly, according to the dictates of the Alzheimer’s state of mind - so things are never in the same place! Drinking glasses in every cupboard! Where are the sauce pans today? Gee! Makes it hard to just cook when you have to find everything first.
 
P.S. Long Journey, interesting that this author includes a discussion on “cognitive dissonance” in his intro!!
I don’t know who did it first, since we have had consistent communication. It is important in explaining that “something amiss” feeling to LDS people.
 
LOL! I used to be a much fancier cook! I keep it simple now. One reason is I was forced to. My mom “reorganizes” the kitchen constantly, according to the dictates of the Alzheimer’s state of mind - so things are never in the same place! Drinking glasses in every cupboard! Where are the sauce pans today? Gee! Makes it hard to just cook when you have to find everything first.
God Bless you for having her in your home to take care of her.

You have got your hands full for sure.

It takes a special person to do that. It takes an incredible amount of Love and patience. (I’ve got one, not the other, you decide which…:D)
 
Eliza, enjoy her while she is still able to wash the dishes. Much of my family history would have died out if a cousin had not listened to her mother’s Alzheimer-prompted ramblings of memory. Sometimes a cloud can have a silver lining. :sad_yes:
 
LOL! I used to be a much fancier cook! I keep it simple now. One reason is I was forced to. My mom “reorganizes” the kitchen constantly, according to the dictates of the Alzheimer’s state of mind - so things are never in the same place! Drinking glasses in every cupboard! Where are the sauce pans today? Gee! Makes it hard to just cook when you have to find everything first.
I’m with LJ, God bless you for caring for your mom.

My friends gave me a coffee mug, it says, “Any pan is a NO-Stick PAN if you NO-COOK in it.” So, I probably wouldn’t notice a rearranged kitchen, unless I couldn’t find the coffee pot.
 
God Bless you for having her in your home to take care of her.

You have got your hands full for sure.

It takes a special person to do that. It takes an incredible amount of Love and patience. (I’ve got one, not the other, you decide which…:D)
Thanks Twopekings! God did arrange for this to happen - you know how sometimes you wish He’d just tell you what to do, but He doesn’t? We have to deduce His will sometimes. He used circumstances to point the way that this is His will for me, and the circumstance now causes me to hone up on patience - its be patient or else, because if I show impatience she gets stubborn and willful and things get CRAZY! Also just being a Mom requires a LOT of patience, which is I think is why it says in the Bible (forgot where) that a woman’s children will be her salvation - meaning, I believe, they help her into heaven by making her take her focus off herself.

Hmm, Love and Patience - they actually are hard to separate. “Love is patient…” Good thing is that when we lack the love required for our state in life, we can rely on God’s provision in grace.

I love this saying of St. Therese of Lisieux:

Be not afraid to tell Jesus that you love Him; even though it be without feeling, this is the way to oblige Him to help you, and carry you like a little child too feeble to walk.

🙂
 
Thanks Twopekings! God did arrange for this to happen - you know how sometimes you wish He’d just tell you what to do, but He doesn’t? We have to deduce His will sometimes. He used circumstances to point the way that this is His will for me, and the circumstance now causes me to hone up on patience - its be patient or else, because if I show impatience she gets stubborn and willful and things get CRAZY! Also just being a Mom requires a LOT of patience, which is I think is why it says in the Bible (forgot where) that a woman’s children will be her salvation - meaning, I believe, they help her into heaven by making her take her focus off herself.

Hmm, Love and Patience - they actually are hard to separate. “Love is patient…” Good thing is that when we lack the love required for our state in life, we can rely on God’s provision in grace.

I love this saying of St. Therese of Lisieux:

Be not afraid to tell Jesus that you love Him; even though it be without feeling, this is the way to oblige Him to help you, and carry you like a little child too feeble to walk.

🙂
Sounds like you have a great perspective on this.

I like to think that God frequently gives us tests, but the good thing is they are always “open book”.
 
Eliza, enjoy her while she is still able to wash the dishes. Much of my family history would have died out if a cousin had not listened to her mother’s Alzheimer-prompted ramblings of memory. Sometimes a cloud can have a silver lining. :sad_yes:
Interesting! Being here has had its blessings and struggles. The struggles I am learning to solve and/or live with (the biggest is making these 3 generations work, and that struggle causes me to rely on Sacramental graces), and the blessings are small but I know they will someday be cherished remembrances. Like, moments when I appreciate her for just who she is. The sound of her voice, the typical things she says in carefree moments.

There is inconvenience, but there is also convenience. When your adult parent is in an institution, you feel torn at home – ought you be visiting them?? And when you are visiting them – ought you not be home, taking care of your life there?? When my Dad was dying, and had to be instituionalized at the end, I was always feeling that.

The memory – unfortunately, its different here than it would be for others. I was surprised to find out a few years ago from her only sis that the post-partum depression therapy, commonly used back when, explains the very few memories I ever got to hear about (and I just continue to hear the same few ones rehashed, though a bit scrambled). And also, for me, that old brain trauma also explains the Alzheimers onset. Its sad, but I know I will get to hear those memories in heaven, so its okay.

I am this week arranging a road trip for us all to Jersey to see her sister (our family roots) and also to the seashore there, of her childhood memory - two things she is remembering a lot, her sister, and the smell of the salt-air. And I am hoping my aunt will share some memories with me!
 
LOL! I used to be a much fancier cook! I keep it simple now. One reason is I was forced to. My mom “reorganizes” the kitchen constantly, according to the dictates of the Alzheimer’s state of mind - so things are never in the same place! Drinking glasses in every cupboard! Where are the sauce pans today? Gee! Makes it hard to just cook when you have to find everything first.
God love you, Eliza! My dear late father had Alzheimer’s in the few years before he died. My mom took care of him like a mother would take care of a child. But he had moments of great lucidity. The night before he died he had a lucid few hours. He and my mom talked of what she should do when he was gone, and where all the important papers were, etc, and also how deeply they had loved one another since that day in 1949 when they met in that boarding house in Washington, D;C… She considers that night one of the greatest gifts that God ever bestowed upon her.

The next night he died in her arms.

Paul
 
Back to the Book of MOrmon theory, I had just read this:

“After Rigdon officially became a Mormon, he almost immediately acquired leadership status “co-equal” to Smith.”

I remembered reading this in Brodie’s book and wondering about it. Rigdon instantly became the right-hand man – why didn’t that upset his brothers, or the Harris guy who was using his farm to pay for the Book of Mormon to be published (which made his wife so mad she threw out the first 116 pages…)??. I remember wondering about that one, and Brodie attributed it to Smith being so “taken” with Rigdon. It was an explanation, but this one (that Rigdon authored the core of the book that saved Smith’s family from being destitute) is more plausible.
 
God love you, Eliza! My dear late father had Alzheimer’s in the few years before he died. My mom took care of him like a mother would take care of a child. But he had moments of great lucidity. The night before he died he had a lucid few hours. He and my mom talked of what she should do when he was gone, and where all the important papers were, etc, and also how deeply they had loved one another since that day in 1949 when they met in that boarding house in Washington, D;C… She considers that night one of the greatest gifts that God ever bestowed upon her.

The next night he died in her arms.

Paul
Wow. That is precious. Delightful. Thank you for sharing that.

Oh, my, this is bringing memories of my Dad. Here it goes:

My parents were so joined we did not know how bad Mom’s memory was. Dad’s Parkinsons was so physically progressively dibilitating (though Dad never complained or got depressed, ever), we did not realize that while she cared for his physical needs, Dad did all the thinking for both of them to keep things running. (As Mom is bossy, and Dad quiet, it looked as if she was running things. She wasn’t). His mind never diminshed. At the end, barely getting his words out, and with so much effort, lungs full of pneumonia and his heart racing, he was able to list for the hospital doctor all the huge list of meds he was on, the mg. dose and how often he took them.

Also laboriously getting his words out, he asked the nurses, after it being explained he was now done with food and would have to be tube fed from now on, if he could still kiss his wife, which made them all smile. They were so devoted to each other, so intertwined.

My Dad, of “scientific mind”, of parents who rejected faith, went to church with Mom but you could never get him to verbally acknowledge God. I tried. He tolerated my trying but wouldn’t engage. At the end, though, he particuarly didn’t want to talk about it (when I particularly did) since he was determined to the very end to stay alive, so did not want to think of dying, even as he was dying.

However, at the very end, on that awful lung machine, I was able to tell him two things that made him smile - I think gratefully. I told him that Jesus would be greeting him so happily, and that He was so happy with him, because He is the author of marriage, and Dad had been such a good husband to Mom, and had loved her so well.🙂 The other was that he could do more good for us and for Mom in heaven than he could do here on earth. I felt that he believed that.:o

Also, in that awful state, he told me three times (in a row, like Jesus to Peter, when I first said “yes, of course”, he went to the trouble of repeating it, and then again!) to take care of my mother! So, I do not feel like a hero - how could I possibly not honor that?

The death scene is too hard to tell.

But I want to share another thing. My oldest brother had a dream that night or the next. He dreamed my Dad was walking off on a country road, with a dog. He said it was the realest dream he ever had, and that Dad turned briefly and smiled at him, and kept walking off to the distance.

That dream was a blessed gift, and tells me (which I would have believed anyway) that Dad made it to Purgatory. I can see Our Lord blessing him like that, having his mobility so imparied, for so long, and Dad always liked walks and the beauty of the country - to think of him mobile again, breathing fresh country air instead of that awful hospital air, and with a dog companion (he had dogs in childhood, and my youngest brother had one). It seems just like Our Lord to bless him that way after all that suffering, so he could have peace, and freedom, to think - as I think purgatory is a lot about thinking.

Oh, my goodness - Mom just read me the date from the newspaper (she does that all the time!). Its my Dad’s mother’s birthday, my Grams, my favorite lady, whom I pray for at every Mass. I wish I’d gotten to Mass today!

I should also say that with Grams, I had to see her end in the nursing home, when she wanted to live with me, but it couldn’t have worked with my difficult marriage, and with a new baby. Seeing Grams and Dad institutionalized, I couldn’t do it again. And I want to say this, for anyone who ever has to decide on caretaking, if you have a choice - this inconvenience (living with Mom) is easier than visiting the institutions. (So far, by God’s grace, I have not yet found it too difficult yet).

Thanks for letting me hijack my own thread! 🙂 I am without my son for 3 weeks -longest ever - and its been a big reflection time for me.

For everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven…
 
This question is coming to mind now, having read Fawn Brodie’s excellent book. She wrote it with a truly unbiased mind, relying extremely heavily on valid historical document, and tried to piece together how it came about.
I must be a remarkably dense person. Can you please explain to me how a priori rejection of the merest possibility that Joseph could be telling the truth equals “a truly unbiased mind?” I’m just not seeing it. Sorry.
The Mormon poster Pahoran took issue here with partly Brodie because she already disbelieved that Smith received the book by miracle before she wrote on him. But as Long Journey says in his online book, p.8, “The strongest motivation for researching is not a blank slate, but questions [stemming] from a sense that …something is awry.” I certainly agree with that.
“A sense that something is awry” is something quite different than the approach Brodie took. Her good friend and confidant, Dale Morgan, once wrote:

“With my point of view on God, I am incapable of accepting the claims of Joseph Smith and the Mormons, be they however so convincing. If God does not exist, how can Joseph Smith’s story have any possible validity? I will look everywhere for explanations except to the ONE explanation that is the position of the church.”

This was essentially Brodie’s own approach as well. She said, “I was convinced before I ever began writing the book that Joseph Smith was not a true prophet.” How can this be “unbiased?”
I think I’m correct in assuming that Pahoran favors writers and reviewers who start from the premise that Smith’s book was supernaturally imparted. Like the writer of an article he linked here [the one I said was boring].
As I said: it was written to inform, not entertain. I can see where it might be heavy going, and if scholarly writing is not your ouvre. I had no problem with it.

But, to a certain extent, you are right. Naturally, just like you, I prefer writers who share my view of things that matter to me. However, I don’t go into raptures about how “unbiased” those writers are.
But I would like to begin to look at the origins of the book of Mormon with assuming it was NOT supernaturally written.* Only that seems unbiased*.
There seems to be a natural human tendency for us to readily spot the biases of those with whom we disagree, but to be quite unconscious of our own, including when they are shared by others. It may “seem” unbiased to assume that the Book of Mormon is fraudulent, and set out on a determined quest to prove it; but I’m afraid it is not.

End part 1 (had to split the post.)
 
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