If Joseph Smith had not been murdered what would the LDS church be like now?

[stormy99]

This calls for opinions…what do you think? Clearly Brigham Young took the Church in the direction he felt was true?

Would there still be an LDS church if Joseph Smith hadn’t died?

stormy

 

[LongJourney]

Probably. It would probably be very small, more like RLDS. BY gave the Utah church some frightening characteristics. :sad_yes: The judgmental attitudes, the aggressive proselytization, the racism, etc. :tissues: Going out West and isolating themselves for several generations pretty well distilled their culture, both good and bad aspects.

 

[dianaiad]

Probably. It would probably be very small, more like RLDS. BY gave the Utah church some frightening characteristics. :sad_yes: The judgmental attitudes, the aggressive proselytization, the racism, etc. :tissues: Going out West and isolating themselves for several generations pretty well distilled their culture, both good and bad aspects.

Yeah, they were actually well on the way of going the way of the Albegensians, at that…and for the same reason.

However, the plans were already made to move everybody west. I think that the church would pretty much be the way it is now–except perhaps those who killed them (and who boast of ancestors who were involved in the mob that did so) would have less to brag about.

The thing is, LJ, he WAS murdered. The only reason for engaging in such speculation, seems to me, is to excercise bias. After all, the premises for any such speculation would have to differ–and it would be Mormons vs.non-Mormons in an absolutely useless debate. Mormons, of course, would use the premise that God would have continued to speak to Joseph as a prophet, and then to his successor, just as He called BY to be a prophet. As long as we paid attention, all would be well.

Non-Mormons, of course, would assume that everything that happened to Mormons after JS was murdered was the direct result of BY’s personal, uninspired talents, and so can speculate all they want to.

You can see then, that such a conversation would be, well…an excercise in futility headed for increased rancor between the debators.

Not a great idea when tempers are already a bit raw, don’t you think?

 

[stormy99]

Not meant in that way…to flare tempers. Brigham Young wasn’t uninsprited, he just had a much different outlook on what the Church should be. Whether anyone likes or dislikes his ideas…he shaped the early Mormon Church…I can’t think it was easy getting to Utah in the first place and it isn’t the richest state in resources for people to live off. Certainly the isolation was important, but they aren’t isolated now and their religion has changed…how much different would if have been?

stormy

 

[JeanMichel]

This calls for opinions…what do you think? Clearly Brigham Young took the Church in the direction he felt was true?

Would there still be an LDS church if Joseph Smith hadn’t died?

stormy

Where would the Catholic Church be now without the martyrs? Their blood spilled strengthened all who followed after them. What if Paul had not the faith necessary to be martyred? These may not be the most productive thoughts for any group.

Joseph Smith was integral to the growth of the Mormon Church. We will never now if he stayed around if his church would have continued to flourish, but from the very beginning of his church he sent out missionaries to all the states in the USA and to Europe as soon as practicable.

No, these questions are not helpful. What I am grateful for are the histories of the Martyrs. The Saints will guide us if we but emulate their path.

 

[benidict]

Yeah, they were actually well on the way of going the way of the Albegensians, at that…and for the same reason.

However, the plans were already made to move everybody west. I think that the church would pretty much be the way it is now–except perhaps those who killed them (and who boast of ancestors who were involved in the mob that did so) would have less to brag about.

The thing is, LJ, he WAS murdered. The only reason for engaging in such speculation, seems to me, is to excercise bias. After all, the premises for any such speculation would have to differ–and it would be Mormons vs.non-Mormons in an absolutely useless debate. Mormons, of course, would use the premise that God would have continued to speak to Joseph as a prophet, and then to his successor, just as He called BY to be a prophet. As long as we paid attention, all would be well.

Non-Mormons, of course, would assume that everything that happened to Mormons after JS was murdered was the direct result of BY’s personal, uninspired talents, and so can speculate all they want to.

You can see then, that such a conversation would be, well…an excercise in futility headed for increased rancor between the debators.

Not a great idea when tempers are already a bit raw, don’t you think?

hi diana. is there any documentation i could read about plans being made to move west? it seems that before Joseph Smith was murdered, the Mormon community was pretty much settled in where they were at. do you think they would have stayed put, if everything would have turned out differently? Peace to you and yours.

 

[LongJourney]

They were talking about moving, but there weren’t enough pressures at the time to really push them to make the move. I believe that JS was terminally ill at the time of his death.

 

[Casslanpepci]

…is there any documentation i could read about plans being made to move west?

In early 1844 Joseph Smith aggressively organized efforts to prepare for western exploration of Oregon, Texas, California and the Great Basin for a site for a new city.

History of the Church 6:224. February 23, 1844:

Met with the Twelve in the assembly room concerning the Oregon and California Exploring Expedition; Hyrum and Sidney present. I told them I wanted an exploration of all that mountain country.

Thomas B. H. Stenhouse, once a faithful Mormon, later wrote an expose called the Rocky Mountain Saints. On page 146 he wrote, “As early as 1842, he [Smith] prophesied that the Saints would remove to the Rocky Mountains, and in the spring of 1844, while troubles were increasing upon him, he selected a company of men to explore that unknown region, prophesying at the same time that within five years from that date, the Saints should be located there beyond the influence of mobs.”

Stenhouse accepts one of Smith’s diary entries as proof in this case. Yet the entry cited does not mention the Rocky Mountains by name. Instead, it records that Smith sent out men to scout throughout “the localities, California and Oregon” to find a suitable settling place.

Joseph Smith June 8, 1844 (Nauvoo City Council Minutes, Church Archives. See History of the Church 6:438).

& said] If God ever spoke by any man it will not be 5 years before this city in ashes and we in our Grave unless we go to Oregon [california] or some [other] place.

Texas was also considered as a place where the LDS could settle. "Due to increased persecution around Nauvoo, Joseph Smith realized that he would have to relocate the Church outside the borders of the United States. The Republic of Texas was considered by Smith a place where the Church members would be able to peacefully practice their religion. The prophet began to negotiate with Sam Houston, president of the Texas Republic, for the southern and western portions of Texas for the future Latter-day Saint nation. Joseph Smith sent Lucien Woodworth to Austin, Texas to meet with Houston. [citation needed]

Woodworth returned to Nauvoo and reported the progress he had made in May. Reports indicated plans for purchasing large tracks of land. A commission composed of Woodworth, George Miller and Almon W. Babbitt was organized to lead the final negotiations. Joseph Smith asked that Lyman Wight and Miller to prepare to lead a group of settlers to Texas with assumption that negotiations would be successful.[citation needed] These negotiations ended in the death of Joseph Smith in June 1844." (Wikipedia)

 

[Casslanpepci]

In early 1844 Joseph Smith organized efforts to prepare for western exploration of Oregon, Texas, California and the Great Basin for a site for a new city.

History of the Church 6:224. February 23, 1844:

Met with the Twelve in the assembly room concerning the Oregon and California Exploring Expedition; Hyrum and Sidney present. I told them I wanted an exploration of all that mountain country.

Thomas B. H. Stenhouse, once a faithful Mormon, later wrote an expose called the Rocky Mountain Saints. On page 146 he wrote, “As early as 1842, he [Smith] prophesied that the Saints would remove to the Rocky Mountains, and in the spring of 1844, while troubles were increasing upon him, he selected a company of men to explore that unknown region, prophesying at the same time that within five years from that date, the Saints should be located there beyond the influence of mobs.”

Stenhouse accepts one of Smith’s diary entries as proof in this case. Yet the entry cited does not mention the Rocky Mountains by name. Instead, it records that Smith sent out men to scout throughout “the localities, California and Oregon” to find a suitable settling place.

Joseph Smith June 8, 1844 (Nauvoo City Council Minutes, Church Archives. See History of the Church 6:438).

& said] If God ever spoke by any man it will not be 5 years before this city in ashes and we in our Grave unless we go to Oregon [california] or some [other] place.

Texas was also considered as a place where the LDS could settle. "Due to increased persecution around Nauvoo, Joseph Smith realized that he would have to relocate the Church outside the borders of the United States. The Republic of Texas was considered by Smith a place where the Church members would be able to peacefully practice their religion. The prophet began to negotiate with Sam Houston, president of the Texas Republic, for the southern and western portions of Texas for the future Latter-day Saint nation. Joseph Smith sent Lucien Woodworth to Austin, Texas to meet with Houston. [citation needed]

Woodworth returned to Nauvoo and reported the progress he had made in May. Reports indicated plans for purchasing large tracks of land. A commission composed of Woodworth, George Miller and Almon W. Babbitt was organized to lead the final negotiations. Joseph Smith asked that Lyman Wight and Miller to prepare to lead a group of settlers to Texas with assumption that negotiations would be successful.[citation needed] These negotiations ended in the death of Joseph Smith in June 1844." (Wikipedia)

 

[Publisher]

Joseph may have wanted to move the church west anyway…much of the “innovations” of Mormonism occured in Nauvoo…this is where the temple ceremonies were developed…Kirtland temple in Ohio had none of the esoteric temple ceremonies.

I think some of the “oddities” which Utah Mormonism embraced under BY in their isolation in the west most likely would not have occured.

Those “Saints” left behind may have formed an organization similar to the Church of Christ Temple Lot…or Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)…both churches reject the “revelations” of Joseph Smith and as in the CoCTL…view him as a “fallen prophet”.

So that being said…I believe there still would be several groups all claiming to be the “authentic” sucessor to the legacy of JS…but Utah Mormonism would have a “different face”.

Even before the Exodus west…the Saints church was growing with leaps and bounds…that was one of the reasons for the bad feelings between the “Mormons” and New Yorker, “Missourians”, “Ohians”, “Illinoisians” and others.

 

[Georgia]

All powerful leaders leave their stamps on their organizations, secular or religious. Compare what happened in the United States with the death of John Kennedy. Lyndon Johnson moved the country in a way that was markedly different from that of his predecessor even though they were of the same political party.

Would that not be likely with powerful personalities such as possessed by Smith and by Brigham Young? No matter whether you believe in LDS or not, there would be hundreds of moments every day that one leader would have subtle changes in direction over another. I feel certain that we can have no idea of how different things would be had Smith not been murdered.

 

[dianaiad]

They were talking about moving, but there weren’t enough pressures at the time to really push them to make the move. I believe that JS was terminally ill at the time of his death.

Yes, LJ, lead poisoning can be fatal.

(as in…say WHAT?)

 

[TikiTokiguy]

He would have taken the “saints” more west, to California. Probably after the Civil War the U.S. would have had to send the military to put the cult leader and his followers down. Maybe he would not have stopped in California. Maybe he would have led his followers right off the coast into the Pacific Ocean and down to Davy Jones Locker.

 

[RebeccaJ]

He would have taken the “saints” more west, to California. Probably after the Civil War the U.S. would have had to send the military to put the cult leader and his followers down. Maybe he would not have stopped in California. Maybe he would have led his followers right off the coast into the Pacific Ocean and down to Davy Jones Locker.

:clapping: