If justification begins at Baptism, how do you explain St. Cornelius?

[catharina]

It is simple logic. However,

1. This thread is not about Baptism of desire. Someone introduced the subject which is irrelevant to this thread.
2. However, if you can prove that Baptism of desire occurs BEFORE Sacramental Baptism, you will prove my point that "the process of justification begins BEFORE Sacramental Baptism.
3. In addition, if you want to prove that Baptism of desire occurs before Baptism, what sense does it make then to be Sacramentally baptized?

So, the ball is in your court. Meantime, I will continue with the subject of this thread.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Your version of simple logic does not define Church teachings.
I need do nothing to support and “prove” Church teachings.

Sacramental Baptism is required, most simply,
as an open door to all the other Sacraments.

Baptism of desire is at the heart of this thread -
explaining the justification of grace found within Cornelius.
To deny that is to deny the literal action/existence of grace.

 

[De_Maria]

Yes of course. There are the Spiritual senses founded in the Literal sense.

I would though point to the other examples in Scripture of happenings of “Justification”.

In any case…is the Holy Spirit at work prior to Baptism…in their repentance…in their Faith? Yes of course.

Agreed.

 

[De_Maria]

I really have not followed all the thread. Can you very briefly summarize in your own words-- the query?

Sure.

This is actually a spin off from the “he didn’t say faith alone” thread. On that thread, I was making the point that, St. Paul was referring to the Sacraments when he said, “we are justified by faith APART from works.”

For some reason, in response to that idea, someone said that James Akin teaches that justification begins with Baptism.

I pointed out that the Church teaches that Justification begins with conversion and I used these Catholic teachings to back it up:
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.

Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

So, it is my opinion that the process of justification begins prior to Baptism. And I believe St. Cornelius is a proof of that claim. Because before St. Cornelius ever met St. Peter, he was recognized as being a just man:
Acts 10

1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway…

22And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee…

Obviously, Cornelius was already a righteous man, already well on the way in the process of justification, when St. Peter met him for the first time and before he received the gift of tongues and before he was Baptized with water.

What do you think?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Bookcat]

What do you think?

Sincerely,

De Maria

A few thoughts then.

1. Jimmy Akin repeatedly refers to --repentance, Faith and Baptism as all part a whole. He will agree that repentance is the beginning of things…(preceded of course by other grace)
2. Already noted that using an “exceptional case” as a “normal case” is not the way I would go here…
3. I think the term there “Just Man” does not mean per se that he was already “justified” but rather is I think the Jewish way to refer to the Gentile who believes in the God of Israel. But yes one can say God was certainly at work in his life before he met Peter…
4. Works in Paul there is speaking of the works of the Torah. Baptism is though the Sacrament of Faith so yes would be included there on the Faith side…
5. Baptism confers Justification…it is the Sacrament of Faith. Repentance, and Faith of course are also gifts of God and are part of the “being Justified”.

For adults is it normally by grace – repentance -Faith- Baptism (etc)

Here is what the Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI notes:

1. What is justification?

1987-1995
2017-2020

Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

1. What are the effects of Baptism?

1262-1274
1279-1280

Baptism takes away original sin, all personal sins and all punishment due to sin. It makes the baptized person a participant in the divine life of the Trinity through sanctifying grace, the grace of justification which incorporates one into Christ and into his Church. It gives one a share in the priesthood of Christ and provides the basis for communion with all Christians. It bestows the theological virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. A baptized person belongs forever to Christ. He is marked with the indelible seal of Christ (character).

1. Is it possible to be saved without Baptism?

1258-1261
1281-1283

Since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism who die for the faith (Baptism of blood). Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire). The Church in her liturgy entrusts children who die without Baptism to the mercy of God.

 

[catharina]

A few thoughts then.

1. Jimmy Akin repeatedly refers to --repentance, Faith and Baptism as all part a whole. He will agree that repentance is the beginning of things…(preceded of course by other grace)
2. Already noted that using an “exceptional case” as a “normal case” is not the way I would go here…
3. I think the term there “Just Man” does not mean per se that he was already “justified” but rather is I think the Jewish way to refer to the Gentile who believes in the God of Israel. But yes one can say God was certainly at work in his life before he met Peter…
4. Works in Paul there is speaking of the works of the Torah. Baptism is though the Sacrament of Faith so yes would be included there on the Faith side…
5. Baptism confers Justification…it is the Sacrament of Faith. Repentance, and Faith of course are also gifts of God and are part of the “being Justified”.

For adults is it normally by grace – repentance -Faith- Baptism (etc)

Here is what the Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI notes:

1. What is justification?

1987-1995
2017-2020

Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

1. What are the effects of Baptism?

1262-1274
1279-1280

Baptism takes away original sin, all personal sins and all punishment due to sin. It makes the baptized person a participant in the divine life of the Trinity through sanctifying grace, the grace of justification which incorporates one into Christ and into his Church. It gives one a share in the priesthood of Christ and provides the basis for communion with all Christians. It bestows the theological virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. A baptized person belongs forever to Christ. He is marked with the indelible seal of Christ (character).

1. Is it possible to be saved without Baptism?

1258-1261
1281-1283

Since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism who die for the faith (Baptism of blood). Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire). The Church in her liturgy entrusts children who die without Baptism to the mercy of God.

Beautiful and so precise.
Thank ypu.

 

[Benadam]

YES.

People dying before baptism and having obstacles of their own fault removed from recieving it, and die in a state of desire for it, die in a state of faith that began their return to a state of Justice.
:twocents:

 

[De_Maria]

A few thoughts then.

1. Jimmy Akin repeatedly refers to --repentance, Faith and Baptism as all part a whole. He will agree that repentance is the beginning of things…(preceded of course by other grace)

a. I guess he needs to be more explicit about that. Because, as I’ve said, many have misunderstood him to mean that the process of justification BEGINS at Baptism. You included, if I’m not mistaken.

1. Already noted that using an “exceptional case” as a “normal case” is not the way I would go here…

Please show how St. Cornelius is the exceptional case. As I’ve noted, he is a case study in the justification of the Christian. Except for the point at which he received the gift of speaking in tongues, the rest corresponds to everything a typical man going through RCIA would do.

1. I think the term there “Just Man” does not mean per se that he was already “justified” but rather is I think the Jewish way to refer to the Gentile who believes in the God of Israel.

The terminology is used for Gentile or Jew:
Genesis 6:9
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Job 12:4
I am as one mocked of his neighbour, who calleth upon God, and he answereth him: the just upright man is laughed to scorn.

Proverbs 9:9
Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

Matthew 1:19
Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

But yes one can say God was certainly at work in his life before he met Peter…

It is obvious that he was well into the process of justification before he met St. Peter.

1. Works in Paul there is speaking of the works of the Torah. Baptism is though the Sacrament of Faith so yes would be included there on the Faith side…

a. It doesn’t say “works of the Torah.” But works of the Law. And the Law includes the Ten Commandments.
b. In Romans 2:13, St. Paul is clear that if we want to be justified by God, we must keep the LAW. Since we know that the Mitzvot have been cancelled, he must mean the Ten Commandments.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
c. And in Titus 3:5, he is equally clear that we are not justified by ANY RIGHTEOUS WORKS. Not even the Ten Commandments.

The only way to harmonize Romans 2:13 and Titus 3:5 is to understand that keeping the Commandments is the foundation which we need in order to be admitted to the Sacraments. We are not justified by faith or works, but we will not be justified if we don’t prove our faith in God by works of charity, which is equivalent to keeping the Commandments (i.e. works of the Law).

1. Baptism confers Justification…it is the Sacrament of Faith. Repentance, and Faith of course are also gifts of God and are part of the “being Justified”.

Agreed. And since one receives the gift of faith and repentance BEFORE Baptism, then the process of justification begins before Baptism. That is the entire point of this thread. The rest is just window dressing.

For adults is it normally by grace – repentance -Faith- Baptism (etc)

Agreed.

Here is what the Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI notes:

1. What is justification?

1987-1995
2017-2020

Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

1. What are the effects of Baptism?

1262-1274
1279-1280

Baptism takes away original sin, all personal sins and all punishment due to sin. It makes the baptized person a participant in the divine life of the Trinity through sanctifying grace, the grace of justification which incorporates one into Christ and into his Church. It gives one a share in the priesthood of Christ and provides the basis for communion with all Christians. It bestows the theological virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. A baptized person belongs forever to Christ. He is marked with the indelible seal of Christ (character).

1. Is it possible to be saved without Baptism?

1258-1261
1281-1283

Since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism who die for the faith (Baptism of blood). Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire). The Church in her liturgy entrusts children who die without Baptism to the mercy of God.

True, but besides the point. Trent VI, chapter 5 and CCC1987 and 1989 teach that the process of justification begins before Baptism and that is the point of this thread.

It seems to me you have agreed with this, so I don’t understand why you keep bringing up other stuff.

ANYWAY,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[catharina]

…

1. However, if you can prove that Baptism of desire occurs BEFORE Sacramental Baptism, you will prove my point that "the process of justification begins BEFORE Sacramental Baptism.
2. In addition, if you want to prove that Baptism of desire occurs before Baptism, what sense does it make then to be Sacramentally baptized?

De Maria

I responded to this with an earlier post
and you’ve remained silent on the obvious
point I made in that earlier post -

that is:

1. we are commanded to be baptized
   with water in obedience to God’s law.
2. we are admitted to all of the other
   Sacraments through Sacramental Baptism.

Why ignore this relevant answer to YOUR question?

 

[timeandeternity]

Here’s a relevant section from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

We now come to the different states in the process of justification. The Council of Trent assigns the** first and most important place to faith**, which is styled “the beginning, foundation and root of all justification” (Trent, l.c., cap.viii). Cardinal Pallavicini* (Hist. Conc. Trid., VIII, iv, 18) tells us that all the bishops present at the council fully realized how important it was to explain St. Paul’s saying that man is justified through faith. Comparing Bible and Tradition they could not experience any serious difficulty in showing that fiduciary faith was an absolutely new invention and that the faith of justification was identical with a firm belief in the truths and promises of Divine revelation (l. c.: “illumque [Deum] tanquam omnis justitiae fontem diligere incipiunt”). The next step is a genuine sorrow for all sin with the resolution to begin a new life by receiving holy baptism and by observing the commandments of God. The **process of justification is then brought to a close by the baptism of water, **inasmuch as by the grace of this sacrament the catechumen is freed from sin (original and personal) and its punishments, and is made a child of God. The same process of justification is repeated in those who by mortal sin have lost their baptismal innocence; with this modification, however, that the Sacrament of Penance replaces baptism. Considering merely the psychological analysis of the conversion of sinners, as given by the council, it is at once evident that faith alone, whether fiduciary or dogmatic, cannot justify man (Trent, l. c., can. xii: “Si quis dixerit, fidem justificantem nihil aliud esse quam fiduciam divinae misericordiae, peccata remittentis propter Christum, vel eam fiduciam solam esse, qua justificamur, a.s.”). Since our Divine adoption and friendship with God is based on perfect love of God or charity (cf. Galatians 5:6; 1 Corinthians 13; James 2:17 sqq.), dead faith devoid of charity (fides informis) cannot possess any justifying power. Only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides caritate formata) can justify man, and this even before the actual reception of baptism or penance, although not without a desire of the sacrament (cf. Trent, Sess. VI, cap. iv, xiv). But, not to close the gates of heaven against pagans and those non-Catholics, who without their fault do not know or do not recognize the Sacraments of Baptism and Penance, Catholic theologians unanimously hold that the desire to receive these sacraments is implicitly contained in the serious resolve to do all that God has commanded, even if His holy will should not become known in every detail.

This makes the process pretty clear. Evidently, justification begins before baptism (in the case of an adult). In fact, Jimmy Akin is right on the “faith alone” thing, though (like he said) as long as that phrase is understood correctly, and not in the Protestant sense. As the above passage indicates, one can actually be justified before baptism, though **only **if the faith that is present is a faith based in charity–a pure love of God–and if a desire for the sacrament is present. It can be compared to forgiveness through the Sacrament of Penance: if someone has perfect contrition, they are already forgiven, though not without a desire to receive the sacrament asap.
Also, De Maria, I cannot understand how “grace alone” is in contradiction with Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church teaches, of course, that we must cooperate with God in the process of justification, but at the same, even that cooperation cannot take place without the grace of God. So ultimately, nothing can be done apart from the grace of God, which is the true meaning of “grace alone.”

 

[Bookcat]

a. I guess he needs to be more explicit about that. Because, as I’ve said, many have misunderstood him to mean that the process of justification BEGINS at Baptism. You included, if I’m not mistaken.

He says repeatedly all the time…repentance and faith and baptism.

Of course for an adult usually the first two have to come first…they are part of the whole movement. But it is also true that Baptism confers justification. It is the “Sacrament of Faith”.

 

[Bookcat]

Please show how St. Cornelius is the exceptional case. As I’ve noted, he is a case study in the justification of the Christian. Except for the point at which he received the gift of speaking in tongues, the rest corresponds to everything a typical man going through RCIA would do.

In Scripture it is painted as an exceptional case. Peter is quite surprised!

(I am not saying that a person going through RCIA is not going to not experience the grace of God or faith…until baptism of course…or that they will not hear the Word of God and be moved the Holy Spirit to conversion…and seek baptism. Of course.)

 

[Bookcat]

As to what Paul meant by works of the law:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

and older works by Jimmy Akin

cin.org/users/james/files/work-law.htm

cin.org/users/james/files/paul_law.htm

 

[Bookcat]

a. It doesn’t say “works of the Torah.” But works of the Law. And the Law includes the Ten Commandments.
b. In Romans 2:13, St. Paul is clear that if we want to be justified by God, we must keep the LAW. Since we know that the Mitzvot have been cancelled, he must mean the Ten Commandments.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
c. And in Titus 3:5, he is equally clear that we are not justified by ANY RIGHTEOUS WORKS. Not even the Ten Commandments.

The only way to harmonize Romans 2:13 and Titus 3:5 is to understand that keeping the Commandments is the foundation which we need in order to be admitted to the Sacraments. We are not justified by faith or works, but we will not be justified if we don’t prove our faith in God by works of charity, which is equivalent to keeping the Commandments (i.e. works of the Law).

There is a great deal that goes into parsing out all that Paul is getting at in his various letters in these matters. More than can be gotten into here I would think. I will leave you to wrestle with the good scholars and suggest looking more into these questions for I do not think you have it all worked out yet here (pun intended).

As to what Paul meant by works of the law and what he meant by that we are justified by Faith apart from the law:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

and *older *works by Jimmy Akin can be useful

cin.org/users/james/files/work-law.htm

cin.org/users/james/files/paul_law.htm

And it is by Faith and Baptism (etc) that we are able to keep the commandments…and the all the commandments are not a foundation “necessary” to be admitted to Baptism (not saying you were saying such but I note it anyhow)…and I would add that we are Justified by Faith and Baptism…and we are *justified *without proving our faith by “any” works of charity…(speaking here of our “initial justification”) …though we will need to then henceforth “walk in love” …and thus remain living in Christ (again not that you were saying such but I note it so others do not get the wrong impression).