If laws don't lead people to Jesus, they are obsolete, pope says

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When I was growing up, there were lots of laws/rules that we had to follow that no longer apply. No food or drink after midnight until you received Communion (which explained the popularity of early masses). Women had to have their hair covered (hat makers liked this rule). No meat on Fridays(apparently fish is not meat).

You may think those are not on the same level as the ones being discussed now. But many of us thought we would go to Hell for violating them.
 
When I was growing up, there were lots of laws/rules that we had to follow that no longer apply. No food or drink after midnight until you received Communion (which explained the popularity of early masses). Women had to have their hair covered (hat makers liked this rule). No meat on Fridays(apparently fish is not meat).

You may think those are not on the same level as the ones being discussed now. But many of us thought we would go to Hell for violating them.
Yes, can remember back in the 50’s and 60’s eating fish on Friday was a big NO. Remember the nuns and priests telling us of heroic Catholics who were publicly mocked at restaurants and public gatherings for requesting fish on Friday.

After the ban was lifted, there was a cartoon widely distributed among the secular press displaying St. Peter going to hell and purgatory and letting those who had violated this rule receive an “out of jail pass”.

I have total confidence the Holy Father and the Synod members will do the right things, i.e., God’s way.

Peace to all and God Bless.
 
I’m waiting for the full text of the homily to come out before I make my mind up about it. In the meantime the reported summary does quote ‘God’s law’ (to be confirmed of course). If this is what the Pope actually said, then the only sense one can make of the homily as applied to the present situation (what else would it be applied to?) is that certain laws in God’s Church no longer lead to Christ and must be heaved overboard. Which laws are these? Certainly not the no-fish-on-Friday or no-eating-after-midnight or anything like that, as virtually no-one pays any attention to them anyhow.

The Pope must be talking about Church laws that still have weight. This homily was given just before the release of the Synod’s Relatio. Is it possible to suppose the Pope was talking about anything else? If so, what? If nothing specific then why the homily?

There is a logic emerging from all this fracas, an explanation for the boldness of Kaspar, the unilateral decision of the general secretariate to publish what was supposed to be an in-house discussion document, and the nominations to the general secretariate in the first place. The explanation is coup-d’etat. A theological coup at the highest levels of the Church that will effectively overturn the Church’s moral praxis whilst paying lip-service to her moral teaching. If it succeeds it will finish Catholicism. If it does not succeed (and it must fail) it will introduce chaos into the Church as the Arian crisis did.

I loved Pope Francis when he was elected. I found his humility, charity, goodness, and down-to-earth Gospel-founded preaching a breath of fresh air. As time went on I excused his faux pax. It was possible to interpret them in a Catholic light, and Christ had made far bigger ones (humanly speaking). But this Synod and its Relatio…oh, no, no, no, no. No.

I’m not about to rush off to sedevacantism or the abyss, but now I need to understand Pope Francis’ mind. I revere him as the Successor of Peter. I respect and obey him in all that is not sin. But what in heaven’s name are we dealing with?
 
When I was growing up, there were lots of laws/rules that we had to follow that no longer apply. No food or drink after midnight until you received Communion (which explained the popularity of early masses). Women had to have their hair covered (hat makers liked this rule). No meat on Fridays(apparently fish is not meat).

You may think those are not on the same level as the ones being discussed now. But many of us thought we would go to Hell for violating them.
None of the things you listed here are God’s laws, they are disciplines. God’s laws are the 10 Commandments, I believe.
 
None of the things you listed here are God’s laws, they are disciplines. God’s laws are the 10 Commandments, I believe.
Agree, since the 10 commandments are the only actual written words originating from the Lord as presented to Moses in the Old Testament.

From my observation, the Synod’s “hot button issues” in relation to strengthening the family revolve around the 6th and 9th commandments which read from the Catholic Catechism as follows:
  1. You shall not commit adultery.
  2. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
Interpretation of those 2 commandments have different meanings to human beings who have been responsible for establishing Church laws, rules, disciplines or whatever term one can semantically justify. That is, how does one **justly **and with compassion apply the Church laws, rules, disciplines, etc. to these commandments?

Peace to all and God Bless.
 
None of the things you listed here are God’s laws, they are disciplines. God’s laws are the 10 Commandments, I believe.
And what is being put out in this document are even smaller issues than Church sdiscipline. They are pastoral approaches or ideas of possible approaches. There is no change in moral doctrine as that is impossible
 
And what is being put out in this document are even smaller issues than Church sdiscipline. They are pastoral approaches or ideas of possible approaches. There is no change in moral doctrine as that is impossible
The topics that are being discussed and the ideas put forth are very serious. While I agree there is no advocation for a change in Doctrine, the changes that are proposed, appear to amount to a change in Tradition. As Catholics, we know very well that we are not Sola Scriptura and Tradition is equally as important. It is vital that aspect of teaching does not change , IMHO.
 
The topics that are being discussed and the ideas put forth are very serious. While I agree there is no advocation for a change in Doctrine, the changes that are proposed, appear to amount to a change in Tradition. As Catholics, we know very well that we are not Sola Scriptura and Tradition is equally as important. It is vital that aspect of teaching does not change , IMHO.
Bow is pastoral approach an element of Sacred Tradition?

Pastoral ministry is nothing major. It’s an approach, a way to reach out to God’s people.
 
Eternal One:
The topics that are being discussed and the ideas put forth are very serious. While I agree there is no advocation for a change in Doctrine, the changes that are proposed, appear to amount to a change in Tradition. As Catholics, we know very well that we are not Sola Scriptura and Tradition is equally as important. It is vital that aspect of teaching does not change , IMHO.
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I am afraid you are right. For two thousand years, the church has promulgated the sanctity of marriage and that actively living out homosexual behavior without repentance is wrong. If that tradition, those laws, were all wrong, if we believed something incorrect for two thousand years, can the Catholic church stand?

If the Pope and these liberal bishops have their way, what will happen? A schism? Will the Catholic church split? Or will it simply cease to exist, fall to pieces and die?

I am so horrified and sick about what is going on that I can scarcely bear to talk about. Yet it is all that I can think about.

May God please help us all, Annem
 
Bow is pastoral approach an element of Sacred Tradition?

Pastoral ministry is nothing major. It’s an approach, a way to reach out to God’s people.
Im not sure exactly what was meant so it would be nice to hear a clarification, but the Pope saying that God’s laws are obsolete, is pretty startling for me. How can God’s laws not lead to God?
 
Thinking all this over, I’ve just realised something. What we are witnessing is undoubtedly a coup d’etat at the highest levels of Church government, or as Michael Voris put it, a revolution (in the French Revolution sense of the word). The Relatio is revolutionary. It cannot be equated with Catholic teaching in its controversial points. The realisation, though, is this: the majority of Synod fathers are going to cave in. In fact, there will be ***no ***organised and effective episcopal opposition to the proposals of the *Relatio *that have caused such a furor in the Catholic world.

The Synod fathers are under tremendous pressure, from below, from around and from above.

From below: the survey initiated by the Vatican and similar surveys shows that most Catholics throughout the world with the exception of Africa reject traditional Church teaching on many of the subjects covered by the Relatio.

From around: secular society backs the controversial *Relatio *proposals one hundred per cent. In our interconnected, hypercommunicative world, that means huge leverage.

From above: everyone knows that the drive for these proposals has come from the very top of the Church’s hierarchy. The prelates advocating them are emboldened by the knowledge that they have the support of the Chair of Peter itself.

The Synod bishops and cardinals hence have no support base, and most of them will not stand up and be counted as individuals. To do so means rebellion, and everyone knows where that leads. They are going to crumble like tissue paper. I am almost certain - and I hope I make a fool of myself and am proven wrong - that the *Relatio *will stand in its present form (with a few, minor alterations that will not substantially alter its message) and become the framework, the map, of the 2015 Synod.

After all, Catholic doctrine is not being ***directly ***attacked. Nobody is saying that homosexuals can marry in church, or that divorced and remarried Catholics are in a sacramental union. The Deposit of the Faith is untouched. It is just going to be put into a sealed chest and gently shoved aside, whilst the Church’s everyday practice towards divorced remarrieds, homosexuals, et al. becomes something very different.

Arius is indeed in town.
 
What Church laws don’t lead people to Jesus?

I can understand government laws which allow women to abort their kids.
The old law concerning suicide and how Catholics who had committed suicide were denied Catholic funerals and burial in a Catholic cemetary, is one example. Obviously, this is no longer under the force of law, but when it was in force, it drove many away from Jesus and his Church.
 
We could discuss what the Pope means till the end of time but perhaps it would be helpful if he meant WHAT laws he is talking about.
 
I was reading de Lubac’s Catholicism the other day and I had a thought about the Old/New Testaments that was pretty much the same thing re:God being full of surprises.
 
Let’s remember Jesus never actually said who can and can not receive communion

He gave the power to bind and loose to the Church, His bride

God’s laws also consist of this power as Jesus said, As I come from the Father, I send you by the power of He who sent me.

Paul in Corinthians does not say he will withhold the Eucharist from anyone, he says anyone who receives the Eucharist without right conscience, puts judgement on themSELVES

People in those days came from all kinds of cultures and marital situations…

I think what we are witnessing is this… the Church since Vat II is tearing down its structural practices which were privy to a time and place when the Church had temporal powers and principalities… where the law of the land and the law of the Church was the same…

But with liberalism, the Church is ever more finding itself in the position of little influence… the world has sort of come full circle in this respect… We are seeing the Church scathing back towards the Church as it was under Roman rule

We are now in a scenario where people are not aware of the laws … they are ever less conscious of the gospel truths… and the Church is no longer in a seat of power and law, but of shepherding and guidance…

The Church is now in the peripheries … no longer substantial in the culture, but ever more in the position of accusations…

The Church is then in a retroactive mode, conceding its power for more present and greater truths…

Jesus is Lord. All is called to his flock.

The world may have recaptured jurisdiction away from the Church, but the Church will always be present in these Truths
 
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