If Lucifer chose to rebel before the fall, why would we not be able to do the same in heaven?

[mls2593]

Of course I cannot imagine *desiring *to rebel in heaven, however…
I was talking to a friend today about heaven and shared the explanation of it being complete friendship with God and complete communion of our will and his will.

I went on with the Catholic view that once we are in heaven or hell we are there for eternity. My friend posed the question that if Lucifer chose to rebel against God and was able to do so why could we not do the same once in heaven?

Surely we can choose God or reject him in this life, but why not afterward?

I came up with a couple of thoughts that I shared with him but was curious to see what the thoughts of others would be on this.

 

[Simpleton]

Because Lucifier did not have the beatific vision.

 

[HansTrappist]

Of course I cannot imagine *desiring *to rebel in heaven, however…
I was talking to a friend today about heaven and shared the explanation of it being complete friendship with God and complete communion of our will and his will.

I went on with the Catholic view that once we are in heaven or hell we are there for eternity. My friend posed the question that if Lucifer chose to rebel against God and was able to do so why could we not do the same once in heaven?

Surely we can choose God or reject him in this life, but why not afterward?

I came up with a couple of thoughts that I shared with him but was curious to see what the thoughts of others would be on this.

Father Fortea has written something that may be of help here:

Q: Dear Fr. Fortea, why did God allow the angels to be put to the test?

**A: **The real question is, Why did God not grant all the angels the Beatific Vision from the first moment of their creation? Why did He take the chance that some of them would rebel against Him and become demons? God could have created angelic spirits and immediately given them the grace of the Beatific Vision. This was perfectly possible for His omnipotence, and it would have been perfectly just to do so. But there were some powerful reasons for testing the angels before granting them the Beatific Vision.

First, God had to give to each rational being a degree of happiness. Everyone in heaven sees God, but no one can enjoy Him to an infinite degree; this is impossible for a finite being. Each finite creature enjoys to the fullest degree possible without wanting more. A common analogy used to understand this metaphysical concept is that of a glass: God fills each glass (i.e., soul) to the rim but each glass is a specific size based on its degree of glory.

God, in His wisdom, decided that each angel would determine its degree of glory for eternity by its response to a divine test. Each angel determined its degree of happiness by the degree of generosity, love, constancy, and other virtues it displayed in the test. A spirit can grow in its faith and in its generosity toward God before it sees Him. But once admitted to the Beatific Vision, no further growth is possible—there can no longer be growth in faith where there is vision. Above all, the period of testing offered the angels the opportunity to grow in the theological virtues, and some angels would grow more in the virtue of perseverance, others in humility, others in petition, etc.

Offering a being the possibility of faith also supposes the risk that in this same being evil may flourish instead of faith. God, by giving free will to the angels and human beings, knew that freedom, once bestowed, could be used for good or evil. Of course, God could have created the cosmos in any way he liked, without any restrictions or limits. But a saint is not created; one becomes a saint through the action of grace. The gift of freedom allows for a Hitler as well as a Blessed Teresa of Calcutta (Mother Teresa). Once the gift of freedom has been given, consequences—good or evil—flow from every act of the will. In the material cosmos there is no spiritual good; the good of the cosmos is purely physical. Spiritual (or moral) good is qualitatively superior but necessarily requires a free choice. Thus, the appearance of moral evil in no way upset God’s plan. The possibility of evil was already part of the divine plan before the creation of thinking beings.

Finally, the most important and powerful reason for God’s granting angels the gift of freedom was for them to love. God loves His creation, and He desires to be loved in return. But love requires receptivity—it must be received freely (CCC 1828). The same God who can create the cosmos with only an act of His will cannot create that love that is born and proven in the suffering of the faith. The love of God is not created; it must be freely given by a created being. rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2012/11/13/why-did-god-put-the-demons-to-the-test

 

[Dorothy]

Of course I cannot imagine *desiring *to rebel in heaven, however…
I was talking to a friend today about heaven and shared the explanation of it being complete friendship with God and complete communion of our will and his will.

I went on with the Catholic view that once we are in heaven or hell we are there for eternity. My friend posed the question that if Lucifer chose to rebel against God and was able to do so why could we not do the same once in heaven?

Surely we can choose God or reject him in this life, but why not afterward?

I came up with a couple of thoughts that I shared with him but was curious to see what the thoughts of others would be on this.

When the angels were created they were given an extraordinary intellect and other gifts much higher than what we have. When God gave them a test they were able to see at a glance what the outcome of their choice would be, and some chose to rebel against God with the great sin of pride.

Those angels who passed the test then entered fully into the Beatific Vision and would never want to leave.

Your friend’s question, as I understand it, ("…if Lucifer chose to rebel against God and was able to do so why could we not do the same once in heaven?") I answer: When a human being enters heaven, the Beatific Vision, he would not want to rebel against God. He/she would be in ecstatic bliss!

If a person, after their life on earth chooses to disobey God and does not repent, then what they chose (if they die unrepentant, refusing the grace of God), then that is their choice and they cannot change their minds. We all are given many opportunities to accept grace and follow Jesus.

 

[jesus4ever]

Google and serch for the Book THE MISTICAL CITY OF GOD. Its free to read on the internet. One of the first chapters is about the angels and it explains everything. FOr example when they were created by God they did not see him right away just like us but their period of time was shorter.

 

[mdgspencer]

As I recall, St. Thomas Aquinas said the demons rebelled at their moment of creation.

 

[Resgo]

His pride

 

[tonyrey]

If we have free will we can rebel whenever we choose - although it would be insane to do so if we were in the direct presence of divine Love.

There is no evidence that Lucifer was in the direct presence of divine Love.

 

[mls2593]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond! These answers give me a lot to think about on the topic.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Father Fortea has written something that may be of help here:

Q: Dear Fr. Fortea, why did God allow the angels to be put to the test?

**A: **The real question is, Why did God not grant all the angels the Beatific Vision from the first moment of their creation? Why did He take the chance that some of them would rebel against Him and become demons? God could have created angelic spirits and immediately given them the grace of the Beatific Vision. This was perfectly possible for His omnipotence, and it would have been perfectly just to do so. But there were some powerful reasons for testing the angels before granting them the Beatific Vision.

First, God had to give to each rational being a degree of happiness. Everyone in heaven sees God, but no one can enjoy Him to an infinite degree; this is impossible for a finite being. Each finite creature enjoys to the fullest degree possible without wanting more. A common analogy used to understand this metaphysical concept is that of a glass: God fills each glass (i.e., soul) to the rim but each glass is a specific size based on its degree of glory.

God, in His wisdom, decided that each angel would determine its degree of glory for eternity by its response to a divine test. Each angel determined its degree of happiness by the degree of generosity, love, constancy, and other virtues it displayed in the test. A spirit can grow in its faith and in its generosity toward God before it sees Him. But once admitted to the Beatific Vision, no further growth is possible—there can no longer be growth in faith where there is vision. Above all, the period of testing offered the angels the opportunity to grow in the theological virtues, and some angels would grow more in the virtue of perseverance, others in humility, others in petition, etc.

Offering a being the possibility of faith also supposes the risk that in this same being evil may flourish instead of faith. God, by giving free will to the angels and human beings, knew that freedom, once bestowed, could be used for good or evil. Of course, God could have created the cosmos in any way he liked, without any restrictions or limits. But a saint is not created; one becomes a saint through the action of grace. The gift of freedom allows for a Hitler as well as a Blessed Teresa of Calcutta (Mother Teresa). Once the gift of freedom has been given, consequences—good or evil—flow from every act of the will. In the material cosmos there is no spiritual good; the good of the cosmos is purely physical. Spiritual (or moral) good is qualitatively superior but necessarily requires a free choice. Thus, the appearance of moral evil in no way upset God’s plan. The possibility of evil was already part of the divine plan before the creation of thinking beings.

Finally, the most important and powerful reason for God’s granting angels the gift of freedom was for them to love. God loves His creation, and He desires to be loved in return. But love requires receptivity—it must be received freely (CCC 1828). The same God who can create the cosmos with only an act of His will cannot create that love that is born and proven in the suffering of the faith. The love of God is not created; it must be freely given by a created being. rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2012/11/13/why-did-god-put-the-demons-to-the-test

What? This sounds like the first chapter of the Silmarillion, a work of complete fiction. How does anyone know any of this about angels? Is there a book of Angels in the Bible that I’m forgetting? Was it all revealed to one of the saints in a visitation?

 

[Neoplatonist]

According to some of the reasoning in this thread, angels no longer have free will. ?]

How can we imagine that love means anything if there is no longer free will? That just sounds like dependency (or servitude).

 

[Bob_Crowley]

What? This sounds like the first chapter of the Silmarillion, a work of complete fiction. How does anyone know any of this about angels? Is there a book of Angels in the Bible that I’m forgetting? Was it all revealed to one of the saints in a visitation?

Fr. Fortea is an exorcist, with a lot of experience in spiritual matters. I’d say that he’s drawn upon his own personal experience with the spiritual world, in addition to any formal training he would have received as a priest.

I read his book, “Interview with an Exorcist” and I found it quite interesting.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Fr. Fortea is an exorcist, with a lot of experience in spiritual matters. I’d say that he’s drawn upon his own personal experience with the spiritual world, in addition to any formal training he would have received as a priest.

I read his book, “Interview with an Exorcist” and I found it quite interesting.

Being a good deer hunter hardly qualifies someone to pontificate on their biochemistry or evolutionary theory. There is a blurring of expertise. If I’m good at dating, does that make me a qualified authority in psychology? If his training as an exorcist included learning such knowledge of the origins and nature of angels, then the question remains: what is the source of that knowledge that was passed on to him?

 

[Kicks]

It is highly implied that the angels had free-will prior to and during the segregation of Satan and his allies from God.

On Earth, we humans may switch back and forth as whenever to accept or reject God. If we die in God’s fellowship, we will enter the Heaven which we would rightfully deserve. On Earth, we make our choice prior to our death.

I assume that our acceptance or rejection on Earth is similar to the same acceptance or rejection Satan and all the other angels had to face when they were first created.

Like the others are saying, the angels were not yet exposed to the beatific vision and therefore did not see the divine creator in all his glory, so, just like us, they had the ability to sin.

Once the good and bad angels made their choice, the good angels were permitted to see God’s full glory and might, and so they, like all human souls who will end up in Heaven and will see God’s face, will never be at risk of sin.

 

[Neoplatonist]

I assume that our acceptance or rejection on Earth is similar to the same acceptance or rejection Satan and all the other angels had to face when they were first created.

Like the others are saying, the angels were not yet exposed to the beatific vision and therefore did not see the divine creator in all his glory, so, just like us, they had the ability to sin.

:

Though different, because the angels saw that God existed, even if they did not see Him in His full glory, whereas humans are required to accept even that fact on trust.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Being a good deer hunter hardly qualifies someone to pontificate on their biochemistry or evolutionary theory. There is a blurring of expertise. If I’m good at dating, does that make me a qualified authority in psychology? If his training as an exorcist included learning such knowledge of the origins and nature of angels, then the question remains: what is the source of that knowledge that was passed on to him?

You do learn from experience. And you can also educate yourself.

Being a good deer hunter, you might even consider going and learning something about deer biochemistry or their alleged evolutionary theory, their mating habits, their feeding patterns, signs of their presence. You don’t have to stop at pulling a trigger.

Likewise if Fr. Fortea is an exorcist, he might even go and learn something about the spiritual world he’s dealing with all the time. Or do you think all he does is exorcise and nothing else?

He’d also have the chance to talk to these spiritual beings, albeit fallen spirits and therefore probably lying through their teeth. But no doubt he would use his discretion.

I’ll take his word for it. He’d have a lot more experience than me, and far more formal training, which in turn would draw on the thinking and experience of other spiritually educated church figures. He doesn’t live in an intellectual vacuum.

 

[Dorothy]

You do learn from experience. And you can also educate yourself.

Being a good deer hunter, you might even consider going and learning something about deer biochemistry or their alleged evolutionary theory, their mating habits, their feeding patterns, signs of their presence. You don’t have to stop at pulling a trigger.

Likewise if Fr. Fortea is an exorcist, he might even go and learn something about the spiritual world he’s dealing with all the time. Or do you think all he does is exorcise and nothing else?

He’d also have the chance to talk to these spiritual beings, albeit fallen spirits and therefore probably lying through their teeth. But no doubt he would use his discretion.

I’ll take his word for it. He’d have a lot more experience than me, and far more formal training, which in turn would draw on the thinking and experience of other spiritually educated church figures. He doesn’t live in an intellectual vacuum.

And don’t forget the Doctor of the Church, St. Thomas Acquinas, who contributed so much!

 

[tonyrey]

According to some of the reasoning in this thread, angels no longer have free will. ?]

How can we imagine that love means anything if there is no longer free will? That just sounds like dependency (or servitude).

Sartre (who had no vested interest in Christian doctrine!) pointed out that “We are our choices” and “An individual chooses and makes himself”. We cease to be persons if we lack our God-given power to make our own decisions and demonstrate that we are made in His image and likeness.

 

[Brendan]

What? This sounds like the first chapter of the Silmarillion, a work of complete fiction.

I presume that you are aware that Tolkein was a devout Catholic, and most of his works are overtly Catholic in nature. Thus it would be closer to the truth to state that the first chapter of the Silmarillion sounds a lot like Catholic creation theology.

How does anyone know any of this about angels? Is there a book of Angels in the Bible that I’m forgetting? Was it all revealed to one of the saints in a visitation?

Through Reason. Based on what we do know of Angles, of the Beatific Vision and of the Will, we can determine how the angelic choices came about.

God is logically consistent, after all.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

We would not rebel in heaven because we had worked so hard to earn heaven. Satan did not earn heaven … and thus did not appreciate what he had not earned and threw it away.