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truetofaith
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There were no 10 Commandments, yet!
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ericc
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Let us stay with the subject of the children of A & E. Otherwise we will go off on a tangent. They have no idea what is or is not acceptable unless they are told. This is first generation human kind. They see what their parents did. I don’ t think A & E or God told them not to do it.
Yes that is my position.
What is your position? Do you think these children know they should or should not procreate? If you answer not, then my question is who told them? And if not, how would the human race survive? And how would God have them multiply? God does not contradict himself. If it is wrong God would need to give them a dispensation wouldn’t he in order that they not frustrate his plan? And if it is wrong, then God should have told them in the first place. But he didn’t. Otherwise he would have appeared to them as he did to Cain.
That would be a good topic for another post. We already wandered away from the OP post as it is.
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mamlukman
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Your original premise, “Man is born a sinner,” could have several interpretations. My own would be that “Man is unworthy of God without redemption.” But let’s let that pass.
Could a person be born gay? Possibly. Kinsey thought there was a continuum from 100% straight on one end to 100% gay on the other, and most of us were somewhere in between. I think from everyday experience that makes sense.
However, until science proves there is a “gay gene,” I personally think it has more to do with your environment growing up and choice.
If you look at history and anthropology, you can see that entire societies (ancient Greece) were “gay” in the sense that homosexual sex with boys was not only common, but was applauded. So because it was accepted–and even expected–it was done. There was even the “Sacred Band,” an elite military group of 300 in Thebes made up of 150 homosexual couples. The famous line in Leviticus wasn’t put there because men weren’t having sex with each other–obviously they were, and the verse was forbidding it. Different societies have had vastly different levels of acceptance of homosexuality.
Turn to anthropology. In Papua there are several tribes where homosexuality is simply a stage between boyhood and adulthood. Then there are English boarding schools, prisons, and yes (sorry) Muslim societies where a lack of women is made up for by the availability of men. You could certainly argue that in these cases it’s not “really” a choice, it’s more a matter of convenience, but it’s still there, and to me it’s obviously a choice, although not a totally free choice (but what is?). And generally it’s seen as a stage in a “normal” man’s life.
Could a person be born gay? Possibly. Kinsey thought there was a continuum from 100% straight on one end to 100% gay on the other, and most of us were somewhere in between. I think from everyday experience that makes sense.
However, until science proves there is a “gay gene,” I personally think it has more to do with your environment growing up and choice.
If you look at history and anthropology, you can see that entire societies (ancient Greece) were “gay” in the sense that homosexual sex with boys was not only common, but was applauded. So because it was accepted–and even expected–it was done. There was even the “Sacred Band,” an elite military group of 300 in Thebes made up of 150 homosexual couples. The famous line in Leviticus wasn’t put there because men weren’t having sex with each other–obviously they were, and the verse was forbidding it. Different societies have had vastly different levels of acceptance of homosexuality.
Turn to anthropology. In Papua there are several tribes where homosexuality is simply a stage between boyhood and adulthood. Then there are English boarding schools, prisons, and yes (sorry) Muslim societies where a lack of women is made up for by the availability of men. You could certainly argue that in these cases it’s not “really” a choice, it’s more a matter of convenience, but it’s still there, and to me it’s obviously a choice, although not a totally free choice (but what is?). And generally it’s seen as a stage in a “normal” man’s life.
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Thomas_White
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It does not logically follow that if man can be born a sinner, then a man can be born gay. The assumption, or hypothesis, that man can be born a sinner can neither prove nor disprove the conclusion. This is always true within a closed system of logic.
Simply stated, even if man can be born a sinner, what is not proven is that it would be a sin were a man born gay.
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at9009
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Simple clarification but if you mean it is a sin to be born gay as in have same sex sexual attractions then that’s wrong. The Church teaches that it is a cross to be resisted but temptations do not equate to sin.
If you mean to actively encourage said attraction, say be either physical actions or mental actions is a sin, then we are in agreement.
A major problem is everyone is working with different definitions so for clarify when saying a statement like that please clarify what you mean by gay. Younger generations and secular people often have different definitions than the older generation.
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Thomas_White
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“Simply stated, even if man can be born a sinner, what is not proven is that it is a sin to be born with a homosexual orientation.”
My comment concerned logic. It certainly does not mean it is a sin to be born gay. It is the OP’s proposition that assumes that if a person is born gay, then the person is a sinner. And my point is that this does not logically follow in the argument–“if man can be born a sinner, then man can be born gay”.
This assumes both that a person can be born gay and that to be born gay is a sin. What I am saying is that these are assumptions and remain unproven.
However, I cannot clarify what the OP meant by the word “gay”.
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Memaw
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Original sin was inherited from our original parents. It is not a sin we committed ourselves. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God they lost Sanctifying Grace. Not only for themselves but for the whole human race. Thanks to Our Lord Jesus Christ, Baptism removes original sin and restores Sanctifying Grace in our soul but we still have to struggle to resist sin as long as we are on this earth. Our Eternity depends on how well we do that, with God"s help. Man is not born a sinner but we are born into sin and that is why we needed a Savior. We should be on our knees everyday thanking God for HIS love and Mercy. As a Catholic, I am so grateful for His Church and her Sacraments. And I am grateful for the lady that brought my Grandmother into the Catholic faith and eventually her young family, (my Mom included) and my Grandpa. God Bless, Memaw
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Thomas_White
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Yes, I know. There is Original Sin. In my comment, I considered the OP’s title logically: “If man is born a sinner, then man can be born gay.” In this sentence, “If man is born a sinner…” is an hypothesis. While it may or may not be true, it is not proven in the sentence itself. So, it is not a valid argument to conclude from this assumption that a man can be born gay. This also may or may not be true, but it has not been logically proven in the sentence.
St. Augustine taught that as the result of Original Sin, free will was corrupted. Consequently, man could no longer discern the good and was only free to choose vice. He believed that while baptism removed Original Sin, free will itself was only restored through grace.
St. Augustine’s argument was an attempt to address the heresy that there was inherent evil in God’s Creation (i.e., that God created evil). He concluded that evil only resulted from the misuse of what was good and that this misuse resulted from a corruption of free will resulting from Adam’s sin where God, as punishment for this sin, imposed Original Sin on man. Man, as a result of Original Sin, lost the ability to discern the good without the help of saving grace (that is, following baptism). In this teaching, whether a man could be born with a natural homosexual orientation is problematic. It would mean that a man could be born with an intrinsically evil nature. Since man is God’s creation, this is heresy.
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edwest2
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Thorolfr
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There is also no evidence that a person can’t be born gay. The jury is still out on what determines sexual orientation but the scientific consensus is that it is at least partly determined by genetic and hormonal factors.
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Thomas_White
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Despite a great amount of scientific research during at least the last quarter-century, a determinant for sexual orientation has not been demonstrated. Research studies are conflicting and show widely varying results. With this much conflicting research, the determinant of sexual orientation remains an hypothesis. If there is a biological factor related to homosexuality, from the studies I have read it seems more likely the behavior is akin to sociopathy, where there is a neurological component that is resultant of environmental factors. This actually results in physiological changes in the human brain.
A confounding variable is the self-reported sexual orientation of test subjects since verbal responses of test subjects are notoriously inaccurate in psychological research. That an individual even has a fixed same-sex orientation is itself a questionable assumption. What is actually measured is behavior, and that too is reliant on self-reported verbal responses.
In essence, what advocates of the acceptance of homosexuality by the Church are arguing is that if a man is given by nature a same-sex orientation, then this orientation is natural and thus homosexual behavior cannot be evil under God’s creation. Needless to say, this is contrary to the teachings of the Church.
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Memaw
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The only sin we are born with is the original sin, but we are all born with the inclination to sin. We are also born with a free will to resist all sin with God’s help. It’s up to us to make that choice. The closer we are to Jesus and His Grace, the easier it gets to resist sin and repent when we fail, instead of trying to justify our sins. God Bless, Memaw
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SilverLight
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I believe some people can be born gay. Do I have evidence? No but I know there are a few people in my family that are. This is what I and a few others I know believe from witnessing things. I have no proof to say what I believe can be called correct though. You believe what you want and I will believe what I want. I do not judge you for anything you believe in. Now please have a nice day.
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Faithdancer
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There is no gene that forces any human being to have sex with the same gender…or engage in bestiality, necrophilia, pedophilia, etc. Any of the actions are the result of a conscious choice.
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SilverLight
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So if someone is naturally attracted to someone of the same sex then what is at play there? Remember I said what if. I would also like to add what if some people do choose to be gay but others are predominantly gay already?
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Faithdancer
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I’m making a distinction between the attraction, or inclination, and sexual activity. This is an all-important distinction, of course, and is made by the Roman Catholic and a number of other churches. All single persons are called to celibacy and since same sex “marriage” is a fiction, there can be no sexual relations between people of the same sex, regardless of whether or not someone is “born homosexual.”
You might notice I refuse to use the term, “gay.” That is because it is a word that has been co-opted by the homosexual community to make sodomy seem like a happy, carefree, thing. I also only acknowledge the rainbow as a sign of God’s covenant with Noah and his descendants, nothing else.
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SilverLight
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Regarding the last part of the post that is your choice and I respect it.I’m making a distinction between the attraction, or inclination, and sexual activity. This is an all-important distinction, of course, and is made by the Roman Catholic and a number of other churches. All single persons are called to celibacy and since same sex “marriage” is a fiction, there can be no sexual relations between people of the same sex, regardless of whether or not someone is “born homosexual.”
You might notice I refuse to use the term, “gay.” That is because it is a word that has been co-opted by the homosexual community to make sodomy seem like a happy, carefree, thing. I also only acknowledge the rainbow as a sign of God’s covenant with Noah and his descendants, nothing else.
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Faithdancer
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Thank you. I am counter-cultural in many respects. That is why I am discerning both holy orders and life as a friar in the world.Regarding the last part of the post that is your choice and I respect it.
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SilverLight
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I was raised Catholic, went to a Quaker school and now I’m going to a Catholic college and have taken a few Theology classes along with Ethics and Philosophy. I have a few underlying Native American like views of the Earth also now myself.
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Thomas_White
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I’ve never heard it said that it is Church teaching that non-Catholic married couples are living in sin. To say that same-sex marriage is a fiction is one thing, but the reality is same-sex marriage is now legally recognized in the United States.
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