If Martin Luther Was Wrong...

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adstrinity said:
I thought it was a good question in more ways than one and I do not see why some are offensed at the question.
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I’m not offensed by the question. But I’m still confused as to where you’re headed with the question.
 
ralphinal said:
Luther left before he was formally kicked out. Even then, had ne recanted on most of is issues, he would have been welcomed back into the Church. He was given every chance to do so. There is no such thing as a permanant excommunication: if the person repents and makes amends, they are let back into the Church.

Nothing that Luther taught was the truth. Nothing. He saw an abuse that was limited in scope and geography and used it as a launching point for multiple heresies. Had he truly been interested in reforming the Church, he would have stuck to the one issue and not tried to destroy the Catholic Faith.
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What difference does it make? Luther believed and taught that a person only needs Christ to be saved. I was born and raised Catholic and remained so for decades. I left the RCC a few years ago and my experience with grace and with God has made me believe and stake my soul and eternal life on Jesus Christ alone. When it all comes down, what do you stake your soul upon? Jesus Christ and his promise or the Roman Catholic church and its doctrines?
 
SIA said:
What difference does it make? Luther believed and taught that a person only needs Christ to be saved. I was born and raised Catholic and remained so for decades. I left the RCC a few years ago and my experience with grace and with God has made me believe and stake my soul and eternal life on Jesus Christ alone. When it all comes down, what do you stake your soul upon? Jesus Christ and his promise or the Roman Catholic church and its doctrines?
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I base my beliefs on Scripture AND the church that Jesus founded. What is it you don’t get about the church Jesus founded? The RCC’s doctrines come from Scripture. 🤷
 
Cathdefender said:
I base my beliefs on Scripture AND the church that Jesus founded. What is it you don’t get about the church Jesus founded? The RCC’s doctrines come from Scripture. 🤷
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The church Jesus founded isn’t the RCC. Nothing else to understand there.
 
SIA said:
If you read Scripture like you claim to, you would know that the church Jesus founded is not the RCC.
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If YOU read Scripture, you’d know that the Catholic church was truly founded by Christ. You interpret the bible wrong. This is why there are 30,000 denominations and one Catholic church. THE WHOLE WORLD WAS CATHOLIC way before a Protestant ever saw the light of day. Don’t you see? When I visited Rome, in the Catacombs were etchings on the walls stating that in fact, everything was Catholic in belief back then. Why don’t you see this? Jesus established only ONE church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican and so on.)
The bible says the church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23-32).

His church also teaches **one set of Doctrines, which are the same as those taught by the Apostles. **(Jude 3). This is the unity of belief in which Scripture calls us (Phil 1:27, 2:2).
The church’s official teachers, the pope and the bishops **never changed any Doctrine **
For 2,000 years the Catholic church has carried out its mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants us to be a part of his universal family. (Gal. 3:28).
Just the title Catholic was founded in the year 107, when Ignatius used the term to refer to the church Christ had founded.
Then we have THE FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH which are:
One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

Do you get it now? Makes perfect sense to me. You cannot deny history and historically recorded documents.
 
Cathdefender said:
If YOU read Scripture, you’d know that the Catholic church was truly founded by Christ. You interpret the bible wrong. This is why there are 30,000 denominations and one Catholic church. THE WHOLE WORLD WAS CATHOLIC way before a Protestant ever saw the light of day. Don’t you see? When I visited Rome, in the Catacombs were etchings on the walls stating that in fact, everything was Catholic in belief back then. Why don’t you see this? Jesus established only ONE church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican and so on.)
The bible says the church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23-32).

His church also teaches **one **s****et of Doctrines, which are the same as those taught by the Apostles. (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief in which Scripture calls us (Phil 1:27, 2:2).
The church’s official teachers, the pope and the bishops **never changed any Doctrine **
For 2,000 years the Catholic church has carried out its mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants us to be a part of his universal family. (Gal. 3:28).
Just the title Catholic was founded in the year 107, when Ignatius used the term to refer to the church Christ had founded.
Then we have THE FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH which are:
One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

Do you get it now? Makes perfect sense to me. You cannot deny history and historically recorded documents.
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Hmmm… Then where do you get Purgatory, The Assumption of Mary into Heaven and so on? It’s not that it isn’t found in Scripture. I get that, ok… It is that it is contrary to what the Bible teaches. Jesus did establish one church. I get that too. There were many beliefs held from eye witness in the early church. that I get as well. But show me for example where Purgatory exists in the early church as is taught from Jesus. Jesus gave us the Eucharist yes, but he didn’t teach many doctrines of the RCC today.
 
SIA said:
Hmmm… Then where do you get Purgatory, The Assumption of Mary into Heaven and so on? It’s not that it isn’t found in Scripture. I get that, ok… It is that it is contrary to what the Bible teaches. Jesus did establish one church. I get that too. There were many beliefs held from eye witness in the early church. that I get as well. But show me for example where Purgatory exists in the early church as is taught from Jesus. Jesus gave us the Eucharist yes, but he didn’t teach many doctrines of the RCC today.
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Purgatory
Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins Lk 12:47-48
Can be aided by prayer 2Mac 12:45
Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15
Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26
Christ preached to spiritual beings 1 Pet 3:19
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Rev 21:27
Sacrifice for the dead 2 Mac 12:43-46
A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42
No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32
“Extra” suffering. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14
infpage.com/concordance/lasthings.htm

In the Second Book of Maccabees, we read of how Judas Maccabees offered sacrifices and prayers for soldiers who had died wearing amulets, which were forbidden by the law; “Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out,” (2 Mc 12:43) and “Thus, (Judas Maccabees) made atonement for the dead that they might be free from sin” (2 Mc 12:46).

This passage gives evidence of the Jewish practice of offering prayers and sacrifices to cleanse the soul of the departed. Rabbinic interpretation of Scripture also attests to the belief. In the Book of the prophet Zechariah, the Lord spoke, “I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested” (Zec 13:9). The school of Rabbi Shammai interpreted this passage as a purification of the soul through God’s mercy and goodness, preparing it for eternal life. In the Book of Sirach, “Withhold not your kindness from the dead” (Sir 7:33), was interpreted as imploring God to cleanse the soul. In sum, the Old Testament clearly attests to some kind of purification process of the soul of the faithful after death.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/BASISPUR.HTM

(Text from ANF, vol. 8.)The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Dormition of the Holy Mother of God
. And when she had thus prayed, the Lord said to His mother: Let thy heart rejoice and be glad; for every favour and every gift has been given to thee from my Father in heaven, and from me, and from the Holy Spirit: every soul that calls upon thy name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy, and comfort, and support, and confidence, both in the world that now is, and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens

And with the departure of her blameless soul the place was filled with perfume and ineffable light; and, behold, a voice out of the heaven was heard, saying: Blessed art thou among women. And Peter, and I John, and Paul, and Thomas, ran and wrapped up her precious feet for the consecration;

And immediately, at the word of Peter, the hands hanging by the couch of the Lady came, and were fixed on Jephonias. And he believed, and glorified Christ, God who had been born of her.
198.62.75.5/www1/ofm/san/TSmarymn.html
 
. We apostles, therefore, having beheld the sudden precious translation of her holy body, glorified God,
 
dosdog said:
Purgatory
Purification necessary for heaven Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27
An intermediate state of purification Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59
Degrees of expiation of sins Lk 12:47-48
Can be aided by prayer 2Mac 12:45
Salvation; but only as through fire 1Cor 3:15
Temporary agony 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26
Christ preached to spiritual beings 1 Pet 3:19
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven Rev 21:27
Sacrifice for the dead 2 Mac 12:43-46
A reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42
No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. Mt 12:32
“Extra” suffering. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14
infpage.com/concordance/lasthings.htm

In the Second Book of Maccabees, we read of how Judas Maccabees offered sacrifices and prayers for soldiers who had died wearing amulets, which were forbidden by the law; “Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out,” (2 Mc 12:43) and “Thus, (Judas Maccabees) made atonement for the dead that they might be free from sin” (2 Mc 12:46).

This passage gives evidence of the Jewish practice of offering prayers and sacrifices to cleanse the soul of the departed. Rabbinic interpretation of Scripture also attests to the belief. In the Book of the prophet Zechariah, the Lord spoke, “I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested” (Zec 13:9). The school of Rabbi Shammai interpreted this passage as a purification of the soul through God’s mercy and goodness, preparing it for eternal life. In the Book of Sirach, “Withhold not your kindness from the dead” (Sir 7:33), was interpreted as imploring God to cleanse the soul. In sum, the Old Testament clearly attests to some kind of purification process of the soul of the faithful after death.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/BASISPUR.HTM

(Text from ANF, vol. 8.)The Account of St. John the Theologian of the Dormition of the Holy Mother of God
. And when she had thus prayed, the Lord said to His mother: Let thy heart rejoice and be glad; for every favour and every gift has been given to thee from my Father in heaven, and from me, and from the Holy Spirit: every soul that calls upon thy name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy, and comfort, and support, and confidence, both in the world that now is, and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens

And with the departure of her blameless soul the place was filled with perfume and ineffable light; and, behold, a voice out of the heaven was heard, saying: Blessed art thou among women. And Peter, and I John, and Paul, and Thomas, ran and wrapped up her precious feet for the consecration;

And immediately, at the word of Peter, the hands hanging by the couch of the Lady came, and were fixed on Jephonias. And he believed, and glorified Christ, God who had been born of her.
198.62.75.5/www1/ofm/san/TSmarymn.html
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It’s all cut and paste. It contradicts what Scripture REALLY says! You are ignoring the theme that rings out throughout mainly the gospels and the epistles that we are all sinners who are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus. Not that we are burned in some place of further purification that wasn’t even doctrine in the early church. It isn’t Bible doctrine either. To believe in Purgatory is to tell Christ to his face that his sacrifice on the cross for our sins wasn’t enough!
 
SIA said:
It’s all cut and paste. It contradicts what Scripture REALLY says! You are ignoring the theme that rings out throughout mainly the gospels and the epistles that we are all sinners who are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus. Not that we are burned in some place of further purification that wasn’t even doctrine in the early church. It isn’t Bible doctrine either. To believe in Purgatory is to tell Christ to his face that his sacrifice on the cross for our sins wasn’t enough!
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The Divine Mercy
youtube.com/watch?v=AySdEJx50Z0

I desire, Jesus told Sister Faustina, that during these nine days you bring souls to the fount of My mercy, that they may draw therefrom strength and refreshment and whatever graces they need in the hardships of life and, especially, at the hour of death. On each day you will bring to My Heart a different group of souls, and you will immerse them in this ocean of My mercy, and I will bring all these souls into the house of My Father … On each day you will beg My Father, on the strength of My bitter Passion, for graces for these souls. (1209)

First Day: Souls of sinners and all mankind

Second Day: Souls of priests and religious - Today bring to Me the souls of priests and religious, and immerse them in My unfathomable mercy. It was they who gave Me the strength to endure My bitter Passion. Through them, as through channels, My mercy flows out upon mankind.

Third Day: Devout and faithful souls

Fourth Day: Souls of pagans

Fifth Day: Souls of heretics and schismatics - Today bring to Me the souls of heretics and schismatics, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. During My bitter Passion they tore at My Body and Heart; that is, My Church. As they return to unity with the Church, My wounds heal, and in this way they alleviate My Passion.

Sixth Day: Meek and humble souls

Seventh Day: Souls who especialy venerate and glorify the mercy of Jesus

Eighth Day: Souls in Purgatory - Today bring to Me the souls who are in the prison of Purgatory, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice

Ninth Day: Lukewarm souls
 
dosdog said:
The Divine Mercy
youtube.com/watch?v=AySdEJx50Z0

I desire, Jesus told Sister Faustina, that during these nine days you bring souls to the fount of My mercy, that they may draw therefrom strength and refreshment and whatever graces they need in the hardships of life and, especially, at the hour of death. On each day you will bring to My Heart a different group of souls, and you will immerse them in this ocean of My mercy, and I will bring all these souls into the house of My Father … On each day you will beg My Father, on the strength of My bitter Passion, for graces for these souls. (1209)

First Day: Souls of sinners and all mankind

Second Day: Souls of priests and religious - Today bring to Me the souls of priests and religious, and immerse them in My unfathomable mercy. It was they who gave Me the strength to endure My bitter Passion. Through them, as through channels, My mercy flows out upon mankind.

Third Day: Devout and faithful souls

Fourth Day: Souls of pagans

Fifth Day: Souls of heretics and schismatics - Today bring to Me the souls of heretics and schismatics, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. During My bitter Passion they tore at My Body and Heart; that is, My Church. As they return to unity with the Church, My wounds heal, and in this way they alleviate My Passion.

Sixth Day: Meek and humble souls

Seventh Day: Souls who especialy venerate and glorify the mercy of Jesus

Eighth Day: Souls in Purgatory - Today bring to Me the souls who are in the prison of Purgatory, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice

Ninth Day: Lukewarm souls
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You are either in the mercy and grace of God or you are not. One with a relationship with our Lord realizes that and also realizes that God is not some puppetier or on again off again disciplinarian. Many things about God are truly a mystery, a few prove not be.
 
Luke 16 31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.
 
SIA said:
You are either in the mercy and grace of God or you are not. One with a relationship with our Lord realizes that and also realizes that God is not some puppetier or on again off again disciplinarian. Many things about God are truly a mystery, a few prove not be.
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You, like Luther, choose the path of arrogant disobedience. As a previous poster has stated, there are over 20,000 different denominations, all with the ‘truth’ as revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. Either they are all wrong, or the Holy Spirit has a low standard of truth. As to Luther, he was a disobedient priest and a heretic. As to his “marriage,” he was an ordained priest and as such, he was incapable of contracting marriage. Same for his “wife”, who was a professed nun. Nuns are in perpetual vows and can only be dispensed canonically. Neither was capable of a valid marriage. In today’s terms, as far as the Church was concerned, they were just 'shacked up." Luther was nothing but a failed priest, who broke his vows, he was no saint, as much as protestants wish him to be. No one man has ever caused such misery and dissention.
 
hosemonkey said:
You, like Luther, choose the path of arrogant disobedience. As a previous poster has stated, there are over 20,000 different denominations, all with the ‘truth’ as revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. Either they are all wrong, or the Holy Spirit has a low standard of truth. As to Luther, he was a disobedient priest and a heretic. As to his “marriage,” he was an ordained priest and as such, he was incapable of contracting marriage. Same for his “wife”, who was a professed nun. Nuns are in perpetual vows and can only be dispensed canonically. Neither was capable of a valid marriage. In today’s terms, as far as the Church was concerned, they were just 'shacked up." Luther was nothing but a failed priest, who broke his vows, he was no saint, as much as protestants wish him to be. No one man has ever caused such misery and dissention.
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Please save your sarchasm for someone else.
 
Cathdefender said:
A friend wanted an answer to this question. Since Luther was a heretic, and married a Catholic nun, who married them? Was it a Catholic priest? (doubt it) or who was it?
I really never thought about it until he brought it up. Thanks.
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If Luther was wrong we would see today thousands of different denominations and thousands of different versions of the Truth.
 
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