If masturbation is gravely disordered

[cswalters]

I’ve heard that car engines stop working because they have demons in them.

My grandmother told me that if I chew gum it will get wrapped around my bones.

Just hearing something does not make it so.

This is true, I would look to a more reliable source such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or a trustworthy priest.

 

[mark_a]

The mouth.

After?? Really??

Still seems manual to me though.

 

[Bishop93]

What way is there other than manually? I don’t think I could talk her through it.

I laughed so hard when I read that

I’ve known women that stimulate their clitoris themselves during intercourse in order to reach the “ultimate” orgasm…Would that be considered masturbation?

 

[Bookcat]

Regarding the wife who does not experience climax during the foreplay or the intercourse…an various other questions …one can read a very Orthodox Catholic Theologian:

twotlj.org/G-2-9-E.html

Go to section 1 h iii

there one can read what is permitted and not…

 

[hellopeople]

After?? Really??

Still seems manual to me though.

lol…I wouldn’t, but that seems to be what the person was talking about.

 

[hellopeople]

I laughed so hard when I read that

I’ve known women that stimulate their clitoris themselves during intercourse in order to reach the “ultimate” orgasm…Would that be considered masturbation?

I believe that this is OK. I have no idea though.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

ie. he may masturbate his wife…no one calls it this on this forum, but that is in effect what it is.

Masturbation is a selfish, self serving act outside the confides of the marital embrace. See the quote from the Catechism here:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

It is more likely to be referred to as stimulation rather than masturbation.

What way is there other than manually? I don’t think I could talk her through it.

Sorry but http://bestsmileys.com/lol/18.gif

 

[baylee]

Masturbation is a selfish, self serving act outside the confides of the marital embrace. See the quote from the Catechism here:

*2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.” *
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

It is more likely to be referred to as stimulation rather than masturbation.

Sorry but http://bestsmileys.com/lol/18.gif

OK, then mutual masterbation should be fine so long as it’s within the context of marriage. Or either spouse can masterbate so long as it’s within the context of marriage. Or one spouse can masterbate the other since it’s in the context of marriage.

The only time masterbation is really masterbation is when a person stimulates themselves alone and not in the context of marriage.

 

[baylee]

Surely you have more imagination than that?

LOL…I would include those other ways manual as well (ie. any way that brings the wife to climax other than intercourse is manual somehow…meaning not the preferred way during intercourse).

 

[OraLabora]

LOL…I would include those other ways manual as well (ie. any way that brings the wife to climax other than intercourse is manual somehow…meaning not the preferred way during intercourse).

I guess a vibrating sex toy would be “semi-manual” then…

 

[Musicadmirer]

I guess a vibrating sex toy would be “semi-manual” then…

Where does it say in any Vatican documents that the use of that is permissible? I’m half joking. From the perspective of a chaste single woman, those objects seems to denigrate the marital embrace.

 

[awatkins69]

Then how come I have heard that it is permissible for a woman to masturbate after sex if she has not achieved orgasm? Isn’t something that is gravely disordered always wrong?

Because the person you heard it from is in error. Unless they are the Church. But the Church has not said this.

The immorality of masturbation is not so much “wasting sperm” or something like that. It is the unnatural (i.e. against the natural law) use of the reproductive faculties for non-reproductive purposes. Since the good of something is the actualization of its natural and essential ends, masturbation is wrong because it is against this principle. That also goes for unnatural contraception and homosexual conduct.

 

[blackrobe]

The husband should then do what is loving and bring his wife to an orgasm after the act.

If not manual stimulation, how else would the husband bring his wife to orgasm after the act?

The passage linked, to which I am referring, is very delicately worded and does not refer to any technique other than controlling ejaculation. Nor does it specify “after the act.”

My reading of this discussion is that people are inferring quite a lot from JPII’s text that is not there. For that matter, it is not a magisterial document so it carries no doctrinal weight. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines masturbation as intrinsically immoral and makes no exception for husbands and wives or context.

JSA

 

[baylee]

The passage linked, to which I am referring, is very delicately worded and does not refer to any technique other than controlling ejaculation. Nor does it specify “after the act.”

My reading of this discussion is that people are inferring quite a lot from JPII’s text that is not there. For that matter, it is not a magisterial document so it carries no doctrinal weight. The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines masturbation as intrinsically immoral and makes no exception for husbands and wives or context.

JSA

This is what someone posted as coming from JPII’s Love and Responsibility:

In his book “Love and Responsibility” the late (GREAT) Pope John Paul II talks about the love that a husband must implore while “tempering his orgasm” so as to reach a climax with his wife. However, it is noted by the Holy Father that many times, due to our biological make up the husband may reach his climax before the wife does. The husband should then do what is loving and bring his wife to an orgasm after the act.

Are you saying that the above is not from the text? If so, can you please post exactly what JPII wrote?

 

[Cherry5]

That also goes for unnatural contraception and homosexual conduct.

So this would be masturbation as well? if so couples that ensure that they abstain during the fertile days (natural contraception) are guilty of masturbation as well I guess!

 

[Bookcat]

I have not been following the latest posts…but i thought to post again this:

twotlj.org/G-2-9-E.html

1 h iii

Dr. Germain Grizez goes into what is permitted in marriage…what is chaste…

 

[awatkins69]

So this would be masturbation as well? if so couples that ensure that they abstain during the fertile days (natural contraception) are guilty of masturbation as well I guess!

No. First of all and most of all this is part of human nature implanted by God, not artificially. Secondly, there is still the chance of conception.

 

[Seatuck]

So this would be masturbation as well? if so couples that ensure that they abstain during the fertile days (natural contraception) are guilty of masturbation as well I guess!

No , of course not. The is no prohibition on the marital act on any particular day of the month or if the couple is infertile due to age or disease. The language of the marital act is kept intact with a couple practicing NFP. Contraception interferes with the self giving - life giving language of the marital act in a variety of ways depending upon the method used. For it to be a “marital or conjugal act” the husband must give himself entirely to his wife and vice versa holding nothing back and performing no action that puts a barrier of any kind between this gift. Contraception is a barrier that comes between the gift whether chemical or latex etc .

 

[OraLabora]

Where does it say in any Vatican documents that the use of that is permissible? I’m half joking. From the perspective of a chaste single woman, those objects seems to denigrate the marital embrace.

Where does it say they aren’t? I think it’s an area for prudential judgement. Some men for instance, would have no objection if their wives asked them to use one to help them, if they had trouble reaching orgasm. Others would object.

It’s something for the couple to figure out for themselves. There are devices and medications to help deal with male sexual dysfunction, it would seem unfair to deny women with sexual dysfunction the same degree of help.

 

[blackrobe]

This is what someone posted as coming from JPII’s Love and Responsibility:

In his book “Love and Responsibility” the late (GREAT) Pope John Paul II talks about the love that a husband must implore while “tempering his orgasm” so as to reach a climax with his wife. However, it is noted by the Holy Father that many times, due to our biological make up the husband may reach his climax before the wife does. The husband should then do what is loving and bring his wife to an orgasm after the act.

Are you saying that the above is not from the text? If so, can you please post exactly what JPII wrote?

Mirror Mirror in Post #7 provided a link to what appears to be a commentary on *Love and *Responsibility with excerpts. The post implies that p.28 of the linked document addresses manual stimulation of the wife after intercourse. All I am saying is that I can’t find that in the document. I would further say that no one has provided a source which shows either JPII or the Church saying manual stimulation of the wife after intercourse is a licit form of sexual activity. If someone claims otherwise, the burden of proof is on that person to cite the reference. Furthermore, no amount of theological speculation can substitute for a magisterial pronouncement, nihil obstats and imprimaturs notwithstanding.

I don’t have the definitive answer to the question of the licitness of post-coital stimulation to orgasm; based on what I have read, with emphasis on the CCC, I am inclined to doubt the morality of the act. I see nothing authoritative in this conversation to persuade me to the contrary. I would be grateful to discover I am mistaken

AMDG
jsa