If Matriarchy & Feminism Are Sinful, Why Isn't There More Of It?

[AngryAtheist8]

Since coming to this forum I have come across Catholics who say that firm patriarchy is the good and natural norm for the Church and society as a whole.

That men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive, and that that is the way it ought to be.

I do not share this view.
For one thing, in practice giving men all the power and women virtually no power and independence always leads to women being viciously exploited and abused by men (I think the best modern day example of this is how women are treated in the Arab world). But the idea of patriarchy being divinely ordained also seems very counter-intuitive to me.

Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions are firmly against a great many things. Such as the worship of other/multiple gods, homosexuality, human sacrifice, communing wiht the dead, and trying to manipulate supernatural forces through your own will (e.g. magic). Yet all of these things have been tolerated (and even celebrated) at different times and places throughout history.

In fact, it seems like virtually anything the God of Abraham dislikes (and that is a long list) has flourished at some point in human history.

The fact that things God dislikes frequently flourish is usually justified by the explanation that humans are fallen people in a fallen world, and because of that Satan has great influence in the world. Influence the fallen angel uses to corrupt and distort God’s Creation and plan.

However, this influence has apparently never been used to seriously disrupt male rule of the human species (at least until the last century or so).

To a humanist like myself this seems very suspicious.

Apparently Satan and those under his influence can create societies where things like human sacrifice, male homosexuality, and even the unnecessary and cruel mutilation of baby girls sexual organs are celebrated, but they can’t challenge the Good Ol’ Boy system(s)

So I ask you Catholic defenders of patriarchy (in the home and in society) do you have any rational explanation for this, or this one of those ‘He works in mysterious ways’ type of things (which I don’t consider a real argument at all)?

 

[supertubos]

Since coming to this forum I have come across Catholics who say that firm patriarchy is the good and natural norm for the Church and society as a whole.

That men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive, and that that is the way it ought to be.

I do not share this view.
For one thing, in practice giving men all the power and women virtually no power and independence always leads to women being viciously exploited and abused by men (I think the best modern day example of this is how women are treated in the Arab world). But the idea of patriarchy being divinely ordained also seems very counter-intuitive to me.

Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions are firmly against a great many things. Such as the worship of other/multiple gods, homosexuality, human sacrifice, communing wiht the dead, and trying to manipulate supernatural forces through your own will (e.g. magic). Yet all of these things have been tolerated (and even celebrated) at different times and places throughout history.

In fact, it seems like virtually anything the God of Abraham dislikes (and that is a long list) has flourished at some point in human history.

The fact that things God dislikes frequently flourish is usually justified by the explanation that humans are fallen people in a fallen world, and because of that Satan has great influence in the world. Influence the fallen angel uses to corrupt and distort God’s Creation and plan.

However, this influence has apparently never been used to seriously disrupt male rule of the human species (at least until the last century or so).

To a humanist like myself this seems very suspicious.

Apparently Satan and those under his influence can create societies where things like human sacrifice, male homosexuality, and even the unnecessary and cruel mutilation of baby girls sexual organs are celebrated, but they can’t challenge the Good Ol’ Boy system(s)

So I ask you Catholic defenders of patriarchy (in the home and in society) do you have any rational explanation for this, or this one of those ‘He works in mysterious ways’ type of things (which I don’t consider a real argument at all)?

Pretty confusing, no? It seems you to be tripping over your own laces. My definition of Patricarch is not that, well, lets see if someone takes the bait…

 

[Benadam]

I don’t find it counter intuitive from an anthropological view. The developement of patriarchal cultures is as ancient and natural as hunter gatherer societies. The male could survive without a woman. A woman needed a man to survive. This is the foundation, albeit often buried, of the emotional and psychological dynamics surrounding human sexual pair-bonding still. Deep down inside we are still hunter gatherers trying to find happiness in a zoo of our own making.

Concept from the book The Human Zoo

 

[TuAutem]

So…

1. Catholics say that this is the natural order of things
2. You say, if that is so, why does it occur in nature?

???

Aside from this curious logic, your characterisation of Catholic beliefs on ‘patriarchy’ falls *way *outside what Catholicism actually believes or teaches: Catholicism does not teach that women are to be submissive and men are dominant; it teaches that men and women have different and complementary roles to play. No one is to dominate anyone, in point of fact: all are to submit to fulfilling the roles they were created to fulfill. If there is any hierarchy of which roles are superior to others, it is to be found in the beatitudes.

It is a tremendous exaggeration of the Catholic position to characterise women as little more than slaves to men: Catholic moral teaching places obligations on both men and women to treat each other in an ethical and respectful manner. To say that men and women are different, and have different roles, does not contradict this. Men do not have, and never did have, “all the power”.

 

[Nimzovik]

I wonder what rationalization the OP has for Humanism?

 

[karow]

What are you getting at with your post? Are you deliberately trying to provoke knuckle draggers into an argument about male supremacy?

Matriarchy isn’t sinful. Feminism isn’t sinful. Lord love a duck, where do people get these ideas?

 

[Stylites]

I wonder what rationalization the OP has for Humanism?

Ah, or the fact that humanists are so anti-human.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

So…

1. Catholics say that this is the natural order of things
2. You say, if that is so, why does it occur in nature?

???

Aside from this curious logic, your characterisation of Catholic beliefs on ‘patriarchy’ falls *way *outside what Catholicism actually believes or teaches: Catholicism does not teach that women are to be submissive and men are dominant; it teaches that men and women have different and complementary roles to play. No one is to dominate anyone, in point of fact: all are to submit to fulfilling the roles they were created to fulfill. If there is any hierarchy of which roles are superior to others, it is to be found in the beatitudes.

It is a tremendous exaggeration of the Catholic position to characterise women as little more than slaves to men: Catholic moral teaching places obligations on both men and women to treat each other in an ethical and respectful manner. To say that men and women are different, and have different roles, does not contradict this. Men do not have, and never did have, “all the power”.

The question in the opening post is specifically addressed to posters on Catholic Answers who believe that there is something inherently sinful about having a woman in charge.

I know there are such people here because I have debated with them in other threads. These people seem to geniunely believe that their position is Catholic, and that Saint Paul’s quote saying that “I do not permit a woman to authority over a man” should apply to pretty much everything.

 

[babylonsfalling]

The question in the opening post is specifically addressed to posters on Catholic Answers who believe that there is something inherently sinful about having a woman in charge.

I know there are such people here because I have debated with them in other threads. These people seem to geniunely believe that their position is Catholic, and that Saint Paul’s quote saying that “I do not permit a woman to authority over a man” should apply to pretty much everything.

Well why aren’t you debating them now IN those threads?
Who are they?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

What are you getting at with your post? Are you deliberately trying to provoke knuckle draggers into an argument about male supremacy?

Something like that.

I have been debating advocates of hardcore patriarchy about how much (or how little) authority and freedom women should be allowed to have since I joined this forum. Probably the best example is the epic FRANCO WAS RIGHT thread in this very section (Traditional Catholicism).

These defenders of patriarchy claim that its not that important (or even counter productive) for women to have the right to own property in their own name, vote, travel freely, work outside the home without a male’s permission, etc.

The opening post of this thread is more or less a challenge to these people to defend their position using theology and (ideally) reason.

Of course I realized that my question might receive a very negative reception, due to the fact that this is a conservative section of a relatively conservative Catholic forum.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Ah, or the fact that humanists are so anti-human.

Do you have any reasons or evidence to back up this claim?

 

[babylonsfalling]

Since coming to this forum I have come across Catholics who say that firm patriarchy is the good and natural norm for the Church and society as a whole.

That men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive, and that that is the way it ought to be.

I do not share this view.
For one thing, in practice giving men all the power and women virtually no power and independence always leads to women being viciously exploited and abused by men (I think the best modern day example of this is how women are treated in the Arab world). <—So why aren’t you pestering the Arabs since they’re the “best” example. But the idea of patriarchy being divinely ordained also seems very counter-intuitive to me.

Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions are firmly against a great many things. Such as the worship of other/multiple gods, homosexuality, human sacrifice, communing wiht the dead, and trying to manipulate supernatural forces through your own will (e.g. magic). Yet all of these things have been tolerated (and even celebrated) at different times and places throughout history.

In fact, it seems like virtually anything the God of Abraham dislikes (and that is a long list) has flourished at some point in human history.

The fact that things God dislikes frequently flourish is usually justified by the explanation that humans are fallen people in a fallen world, and because of that Satan has great influence in the world. Influence the fallen angel uses to corrupt and distort God’s Creation and plan.

However, this influence has apparently never been used to seriously disrupt male rule of the human species (at least until the last century or so).

To a humanist like myself this seems very suspicious.

Apparently Satan and those under his influence can create societies where things like human sacrifice, male homosexuality, and even the unnecessary and cruel mutilation of baby girls sexual organs are celebrated, but they can’t challenge the Good Ol’ Boy system(s)

So I ask you Catholic defenders of patriarchy (in the home and in society) do you have any rational explanation for this, or this one of those ‘He works in mysterious ways’ type of things (which I don’t consider a real argument at all)?

This schtick isn’t working too well for you.

Feminism HAS ALREADY thrived, as did the civil rights movement. The reason most aren’t making enough noise for you nowadays is because most of their goals have been achieved. There are those who want to be life long feminists but they aren’t taken seriously BECAUSE there isn’t as much to make noise about anymore.

And if you REALLY wanted to talk to someone who thought women should be treated unequally, you’d have never come here in the first place because Catholics have not presented themselves that way. Instead of being here, you’d be having your squabble with Arabs who believe kind of stuff.

Maybe you should go yap at someone else’s heels.

 

[Crumpy]

do you have any rational explanation for this, or this one of those ‘He works in mysterious ways’ type of things (which I don’t consider a real argument at all)?

A believer reads scripture with faith. That may be impossible for an atheist, by definition.

But, is Christianity rational? It is certainly rational and consistent within its own context.

the patriarchal model is taught explicitly and implicitly, for sure. A woman is supposed to submit to her husband, but that is supposed to be a man who is, himself, submissive to God. For a woman to submit to a man who is submissive to God is rationally the best of all worlds for Christians.

A woman is supposed to be a helper, the word used in Genesis to describe Eve.
Being faithful to that vocation is something that would give a woman a lot of wiggle room to be a leader to her husband and family and to help him carry out his responsibilities.

I can’t see a man living fully who does not give his wife the opportunity to exercise all her God-given faculties and intelligence.

Any implimenation of the marital covenant which is destructive to a woman must-needs be an incorrect implementation. any breakdown would have to be evil and an overturning of the marriage covenant, where the two become one, want the same thing, etc.

 

[Nimzovik]

O.K. I personally will bait the tiger (which is apparantly what the OP is looking for) with these statements. I deplore much of feminism. From what I have seen feminism has brought much more than it’s shares of **evil **along with the good it has done. One such very BLATANT example is abortion. My dear OP feminist, I ask you - do you think a woman has the right to murder a child in the womb? As an “Angry Atheist” do you think it is “fair” that a woman should have to carry a baby if she does not want too?? Note: I am not being rhetorical here.

Another such evil that is often propagated by extreme feminists is women priests. Is this what you mean by ‘being in charge?’ This particular example has been ruled upon by the Catholic Hierarchy. See there for the reasoning.

Another example is the notion that Christianity is repsponsible for repression of women. Hah.!!! Comparatively speaking in regard to other religions (and secular thought) Catholicism has indeed elevated women. Witness the archetypal model of Christianity - Mary. Witness also how St. Joeseph was so very attentive to her needs.

Then there is this very obvious fact. The very nature of feminism itself as defined by it’s very name. Femism. Females only. Note it is not called “WEism” which IMHO is what it should be called. It (Feminism) is **exclusionary **by it’s very nature as evidenced by it’s very name.

For all practical considerations I must assert --If this OP is such an advocate for feminism what on earth is this person doing posting here?? Why not go to the Islamic sites or countries where there are real challenges as suggested earlier?

Please do not get me started on the atrocities committed by atheists either.

 

[Heliotropium]

Since coming to this forum I have come across Catholics who say that firm patriarchy is the good and natural norm for the Church and society as a whole.

That men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive, and that that is the way it ought to be.

I do not share this view.
For one thing, in practice giving men all the power and women virtually no power and independence always leads to women being viciously exploited and abused by men (I think the best modern day example of this is how women are treated in the Arab world). But the idea of patriarchy being divinely ordained also seems very counter-intuitive to me.

Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions are firmly against a great many things. Such as the worship of other/multiple gods, homosexuality, human sacrifice, communing wiht the dead, and trying to manipulate supernatural forces through your own will (e.g. magic). Yet all of these things have been tolerated (and even celebrated) at different times and places throughout history.

In fact, it seems like virtually anything the God of Abraham dislikes (and that is a long list) has flourished at some point in human history.

The fact that things God dislikes frequently flourish is usually justified by the explanation that humans are fallen people in a fallen world, and because of that Satan has great influence in the world. Influence the fallen angel uses to corrupt and distort God’s Creation and plan.

However, this influence has apparently never been used to seriously disrupt male rule of the human species (at least until the last century or so).

To a humanist like myself this seems very suspicious.

Apparently Satan and those under his influence can create societies where things like human sacrifice, male homosexuality, and even the unnecessary and cruel mutilation of baby girls sexual organs are celebrated, but they can’t challenge the Good Ol’ Boy system(s)

So I ask you Catholic defenders of patriarchy (in the home and in society) do you have any rational explanation for this, or this one of those ‘He works in mysterious ways’ type of things (which I don’t consider a real argument at all)?

How about you stick with one topic and then move from there. It seems that you have added a lot to overwhelm the otherside since yours lacks a solid foundation.

The first problem you have is with patriarchy and as one can see it is a problem because you essentially do not understand it. The roles of the husband and the wife are meant to be complementary thus creating ONE entity. The family was created by God and as being such was created in His image (a Trinity). In the Trinity we have the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit and while all three persons are different they are also all equally God. Likewise in the family you have the father, the mother, and the children who are all equally important because they make up ONE family. The order of highest to lowest is not to denote ones self-worlth or importance within the family but to show ones role within the family. Christ in the Trinity is the savior and His Humanity is lesser than and subordinate to The Father even though His Divinity is equal. At the same time the mothers role is lesser than the role of the father, however the mother is of equal importance within the family as the father.

In Christianity men and woman are both seen as equally important and their different roles are seen as indespencible to the means in which we will reach Gods perfect end.

A puzzle has many pieces, all of them different shapes and sizes but none of them are looked at as more important than the others since everyone knows that even if the tiniest piece of the puzzle is missing then it would not be complete. And so in the family the roles of men and women are different but there value is the same.

Unlike the rest of the world, we Christians choose not to force pieces of the puzzle into places where they do not belong.

 

[GloriousOrder]

Boy, am I glad I’m not an atheist anymore. Your questions are so ridiculous that they remind me of my worst days in that camp. I must say that I don’t think you clearly understand the nature of priesthood, society, humanity, and Western culture. True patriarchy has nothing to do with oppressing or abusing anyone.

Let’s first be clear about one thing: God does not work in mysterious ways. That is a bothersome old saying which makes Christians look like idiots. Our holy religion is based entirely on the fact that God took humanity expressly to teach us and reveal truth. We can hardly say there’s any mystery about it at all, in fact. It is the Lord who is mysterious as an entity, as a being, but His ways and works are pretty plain and clear.

Now, why must a sin be rampant today in order for it to be damnable? Remember that practically every single religion around the Jews in the Old Testament employed priestesses. These cults ranged up and down the Nile, through the Levant, east in Babylon along the Tigris and Euphrates, and far north to Hattusa of the Hittites. Everywhere you looked there were bloodthirsty women-sages and creepy female oracles who writhed around predicting the future. I’d say something like 90% of all religion in the entire pre-Socratic eastern Mediterranean had priestesses. It was very much rampant.

A thing may be objectively right or wrong regardless of its practice at one given age or another. Why are you making this a criteria for ridicule and mockery? This does not shine any light on whether the Church is right or not. You appear to be assuming that the Church simply condemns whatever the greatest number of people are having the most fun doing. This is the common childish perception of the Christian religion. It’s very transparent and annoying.

 

[Benadam]

C’mon, Women usher in every generation. Women shape man at the outset. Can’t men keep the little sumpthin’ sumpthin’ God let us do?

 

[Benadam]

I think we’re surrounded by a matriarchal culture. women can end the life of the children of men. Men don’t have that right.

I would say that the power of fertility is driving western culture in it’s recent and predominant transformations.

Women today are saying that the child forming in their womb is theirs only. " no body can tell me what I can do with my own body". Like Eve said when Cain was born " I have got me a man with the help of God." She made a man and God’s her helper. That’s matriarchal.

God has granted another offspring" That’s patriarchal. She said that when Seth was born. Seth , the first born in his father’s image.

 

[archangel04]

Lol oh Angry I always get a kick out of your post. Glad you are on here to add some spice to this forum.

 

[josephback]

Apparently Satan and those under his influence can create societies where things like human sacrifice, male homosexuality, and even the unnecessary and cruel mutilation of baby girls sexual organs are celebrated, but they can’t challenge the Good Ol’ Boy system(s)

Surely you’ve heard of the American feminist movement Actually America is the perfect example of this. Study hard

So I ask you Catholic defenders of patriarchy (in the home and in society) do you have any rational explanation for this, or this one of those ‘He works in mysterious ways’ type of things (which I don’t consider a real argument at all)?

Simple. Women rule through the men. They are far too smart to take the full load of the world on themselves, so they let us think we’re doing the leading as they pull the puppet strings. Ask any husband From the king to the peasant, every decent husband wants to keep his wife happy. Ask yourself, why the need? Women often rule the world by proxy. They’re geniuses!

Besides this, there have been a few times where women rule outright. Queen Elizabeth I, Queen Mary of Scots, Queen Hatshepsut of Egypt, etc. Women have had the power plenty of times in history.