If Matriarchy & Feminism Are Sinful, Why Isn't There More Of It?

[AngryAtheist8]

I was pointing out how the modern feminine mindset is the mindset that a matriarchal culture would produce. I was pointing out the most ancient biblical examples of patriarchal and matriarchal societies.

We don’t live in a patriarchy. As for other parts of the world, they appear patriarchal but it’s obviously in it’s death throws. That’s why we got to suffer these terrorist groups. They know their ways are going out the window as the nations don their global identities,

I would like to believe these vicious patriarchal societies such as they have in Saudi Arabia, China, Iran, and the Sudan are on their way out, but I think things will get much worse before they get better.

I honestly think humanity is about to pay a hefty price for the historical preference for sons.

A huge generation of boys (but not girls) is coming of age in China and India.

These young men will be sexually frustrated (for there are not enough women to go around) with little prospect for sex (aside from prostitution) or marriage. They will also have a strong sense of entitlement, for the families in India and (especially) China are relatively small now (which means more income to spend on each individual child) and incomes in both countries have been rising over the last few decades as they began to industrialize and became big players in international commerce, moreover Chinese and Indian boys have always been relatively spoiled (at least in comparison to Indian and Chinese girls). Here is an article on the subject, concerning the growing problem of childhood obesity in China: arabnews.com/lifestyle/offbeat/article339416.ece

The two biggest countries in the world (population wise) which are both on their way to becoming superpowers, will soon be dominated by a generation of spoiled and sexually frustrated men. I cannot imagine this ending well.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Yes that one sentence does contradict itself but thats only because it was poorly phrased. Not a very strong argument AA.

Plus I’m curious if you can explain why Mary is seen in the Catholic Church as being above all angels and saints and second only to God? Wouln’t this be contradictory behavior for a bunch of male pigs to give a woman the status of being the greatest of all created beings? .

Not really.
Its obviously not contradictory when you consider the fact that God/Jesus is a man.
Compared to that, being the honored and exalted Mother of God doesn’t seem like much.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Ok let’s get to it. Am I correct in stating that, in your perspective, Angry Atheist, the right to have an abortion is strictly a woman’s right and a purely feminist issue? Please declare yourself.

I used to think so, but I am becoming more and more convinced that it should be a matter of public policy. India in particular makes me wonder whether people are too irresponsible and stupid to have abortion without restriction.

The Chinese can at least legitimately pin much of the blame for their chronic shortage of girls on ruthless and short sighted government policy. But the Indians cannot, no one is forcing them to get rid of all their daughters, they simply dislike girls that much.

 

[Nimzovik]

I used to think so, but I am becoming more and more convinced that it should be a matter of public policy. India in particular makes me wonder whether people are too irresponsible and stupid to have abortion without restriction.

The Chinese can at least legitimately pin much of the blame for their chronic shortage of girls on ruthless and short sighted government policy. But the Indians cannot, no one is forcing them to get rid of all their daughters, they simply dislike girls that much.

Bold lettering mine. Your response is unclear IMHO. Are you now saying the Gov’t should be the sole decision maker in regard to denying the right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness to a preborn person? Also are you saying women should not have rights to their own body but the Gov’t can? Also -are you saying a man has no voice in deciding that his child can be born or not? If so then are you saying that then feminism trumps male -ism? Are you saying a woman did not have her chance at a ‘choice’ in choosing to have conjugal relations ? (note : **If **you use the rape word then we are talking about another avenue of discussion)

Having fun with atheists regards -Nimzovik.

 

[Heliotropium]

Not really.
Its obviously not contradictory when you consider the fact that God/Jesus is a man.
Compared to that, being the honored and exalted Mother of God doesn’t seem like much.

And this is where you make the mistake. God is neither man nor woman. Christs Humanity being male does not mean God is male. Nice try though. Do you even know why Jesus Christ was male? There is a reason I just want to know if you know what it is. Kind of like to see how well athiests understand the religions they bash.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Something like that.

I have been debating advocates of hardcore patriarchy about how much (or how little) authority and freedom women should be allowed to have since I joined this forum. Probably the best example is the epic FRANCO WAS RIGHT thread in this very section (Traditional Catholicism).

These defenders of patriarchy claim that its not that important (or even counter productive) for women to have the right to own property in their own name, vote, travel freely, work outside the home without a male’s permission, etc.

The opening post of this thread is more or less a challenge to these people to defend their position using theology and (ideally) reason.

Of course I realized that my question might receive a very negative reception, due to the fact that this is a conservative section of a relatively conservative Catholic forum.

I guess some of us need to make a choice in life. The best choice should be what God has laid down for all of us. We are to marry and have children. The women are to be in charge of the home and the children while the man should go outside and work to help the woman raise the children. Where is the joy of abandoning your kids for others to raise them? should we not be raising our own kids? how are we to do that if we both are doing the same thing?

You can do whatever you want but eventually you will have to face your maker to give an answer for your disobedience and pride.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Bold lettering mine. Your response is unclear IMHO. Are you now saying the Gov’t should be the sole decision maker in regard to denying the right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness to a preborn person? Also are you saying women should not have rights to their own body but the Gov’t can? Also -are you saying a man has no voice in deciding that his child can be born or not? If so then are you saying that then feminism trumps male -ism? Are you saying a woman did not have her chance at a ‘choice’ in choosing to have conjugal relations ? (note : **If **you use the rape word then we are talking about another avenue of discussion)

Having fun with atheists regards -Nimzovik.

My feelings on the subject are cloudy at the moment.

To be perfectly honest, I must admit that I have been somewhat prejudiced against the pro-life position due to the pro-lifers themselves. It never escaped my attention that the fiercest and most powerful figures and groups in the pro-life movement (internationally) don’t seem to have much concern for people (especially women) once they are born.

I am thinking specifically of the Southern Baptists (here in the United States) people such as Jerry Falwell, and nations such as the members of the Arab League. And of course the Church Universal and Triumphant.

My objections to widespread abortion and mostly practical, for I am not merely an athiest, but also a pragmatist.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

And this is where you make the mistake. God is neither man nor woman. Christs Humanity being male does not mean God is male. Nice try though. Do you even know why Jesus Christ was male? There is a reason I just want to know if you know what it is. Kind of like to see how well athiests understand the religions they bash.

Oh you make me laugh

Explain to me then how Jesus is not both God and man.
Or admit that He is.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I guess some of us need to make a choice in life. The best choice should be what God has laid down for all of us. We are to marry and have children. The women are to be in charge of the home and the children while the man should go outside and work to help the woman raise the children. Where is the joy of abandoning your kids for others to raise them? should we not be raising our own kids? how are we to do that if we both are doing the same thing?

You can do whatever you want but eventually you will have to face your maker to give an answer for your disobedience and pride.

This post is vague, with more questions than answers, reasons, or evidence of any kind. If you have a point, state it clearly.

Vague threats of damnation have little impact on me.

 

[wisdomseeker]

This post is vague, with more questions than answers, reasons, or evidence of any kind. If you have a point, state it clearly.

Vague threats of damnation have little impact on me.

Why is it vague? And I thought I was being pretty clear.

The Father knows best. I am just wondering how far this thread is going to go on? I don’t know exactly what you believe on the other hand you know what I believe. So, I think I am being pretty clear.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Why is it vague? And I thought I was being pretty clear.

The Father knows best.** I am just wondering how far this thread is going to go on?** I don’t know exactly what you believe on the other hand you know what I believe. So, I think I am being pretty clear.

No one is forcing you to post.
And being earnest is not (necessarily) the same thing as being right.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

The question in the opening post is specifically addressed to posters on Catholic Answers who believe that there is something inherently sinful about having a woman in charge.

I know there are such people here because I have debated with them in other threads. These people seem to geniunely believe that their position is Catholic, and that Saint Paul’s quote saying that “I do not permit a woman to authority over a man” should apply to pretty much everything.

The problem with feminism is that it tries to believe that women are better (And equal in every way) to men. The problem with being chauvinistic pig is believing that men are better than women at everything and believing women are inferior. So, if one has to be right, which is it? The short answer is neither. Men and women are different in almost every way possible, and neither of them are better than each other. I believe Paul writes about a body having “many different parts”. Just because a woman can’t be a Priest doesn’t mean we believe that women are inferior. With that logic, we should conclude that God is sexist, because we men are strong and we should be able to have children. Why can’t we? We’re human, we’re stronger, we’re perfectly capable, we should be able to conceive babies too! Feminists believe that they can be a Priest better than men can. The problem is this has never been about who can do it “better”. It’s been about who can actually do it. God chose only men to be his Priests in the Old Testament. If Jesus wanted to do things differently he would’ve, but he chose only men to be his disciples. If he wanted women he could’ve taken Mary Magdalene, who would’ve been perfect for the job. This takes out one of the main problems of Catholics being feminists.

I think you two should research a little more from actual Catholics and not Catholic-hating publishers to get your information.

Dominus Vobiscum.

 

[Benadam]

The violations against women in the middle east and asia aren’t really about patriarchy or matriarchy but the need for husbands and wives to be flexible in regard to gender roles. Societies everywhere are changing.

 

[Nimzovik]

My feelings on the subject are cloudy at the moment.

To be perfectly honest, I must admit that I have been somewhat prejudiced against the pro-life position due to the pro-lifers themselves. It never escaped my attention that the fiercest and most powerful figures and groups in the pro-life movement (internationally) don’t seem to have much concern for people (especially women) once they are born.

I am thinking specifically of the Southern Baptists (here in the United States) people such as Jerry Falwell, and nations such as the members of the Arab League. And of course the Church Universal and Triumphant.

My objections to widespread abortion and mostly practical, for I am not merely an athiest, but also a pragmatist.

Well! That answer was highly avoidant of the questions posed. Your views are ‘cloudy’ does not clarify anything. I asked simple questions. Would you please answer them. A diatribe concerning Pro-lifers as you describe them is a non-sequitur.

 

[garygodin]

How about you stick with one topic and then move from there. It seems that you have added a lot to overwhelm the otherside since yours lacks a solid foundation.

The first problem you have is with patriarchy and as one can see it is a problem because you essentially do not understand it. The roles of the husband and the wife are meant to be complementary thus creating ONE entity. The family was created by God and as being such was created in His image (a Trinity). In the Trinity we have the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit and while all three persons are different they are also all equally God. Likewise in the family you have the father, the mother, and the children who are all equally important because they make up ONE family. The order of highest to lowest is not to denote ones self-worlth or importance within the family but to show ones role within the family. Christ in the Trinity is the savior and His Humanity is lesser than and subordinate to The Father even though His Divinity is equal. At the same time the mothers role is lesser than the role of the father, however the mother is of equal importance within the family as the father.

In Christianity men and woman are both seen as equally important and their different roles are seen as indespencible to the means in which we will reach Gods perfect end.

A puzzle has many pieces, all of them different shapes and sizes but none of them are looked at as more important than the others since everyone knows that even if the tiniest piece of the puzzle is missing then it would not be complete. And so in the family the roles of men and women are different but there value is the same.

Unlike the rest of the world, we Christians choose not to force pieces of the puzzle into places where they do not belong.

As Catholics, our Blessed Mother is the prime example of feminism, period. Neither adding to or subtracting from.

 

[josephback]

The concept of servant-leadership only works if the leader is more compassionate and giving than everyone else. If the leader is not willing to put everyone else’s wants and needs first, then he will dominate for his own benefit (or what he thinks is his own benefit).

There are plenty of indecent men, and many of them are in societies that encourage men to see their wives and daughters as possessions rather than people.

As for your examples, they are all instances of a woman ruling in her own name, **women **as a group all remained second class (or worse) citizens during the reign of these female leaders. Moreover, powerful female leaders were always the exception in history, which is part of the reason why women like Elizabeth I and Catherine the Great are so well remembered now (women like them were very rare).

You offer food for thought

 

[Nimzovik]

Hmmmmmmm… No retort from the OP in days? Mayhap repentance of atheism has occurred?

 

[urielwings4]

The male could survive without a woman. A woman needed a man to survive.
Concept from the book The Human Zoo

Really?

 

[Nimzovik]

Either could survive without the other. The species would not however.

 

[urielwings4]

Either could survive without the other. The species would not however.