If Matriarchy & Feminism Are Sinful, Why Isn't There More Of It?

[AngryAtheist8]

Benadam;8095271**:

The violations against women in the middle east and asia aren’t really about patriarchy or matriarchy

but the need for husbands and wives to be flexible in regard to gender roles. Societies everywhere are changing.

The highlighted statement is simply wrong.

Muslims freely and openly admit that they think things like Sharia law are based on religious teaching and affirms a man’s right to rule over the women in his family. For instance, in Iran a woman’s worth is half that of a man’s, based on their interpretation of Islamic teaching (relevant source: hudson-ny.org/826/dirty-mullahs-in-iran).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Well! That answer was highly avoidant of the questions posed. Your views are ‘cloudy’ does not clarify anything. I asked simple questions. Would you please answer them. A diatribe concerning Pro-lifers as you describe them is a non-sequitur.

Not all questions have yes or no answers.
I am sorry if you cannot appreciate that:shrug:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

As Catholics, our Blessed Mother is the prime example of feminism, period. Neither adding to or subtracting from.

That statement is debatable at best.
And doesn’t even address the main question.

 

[vsedriver]

These defenders of patriarchy claim that its not that important (or even counter productive) for women to have the right to own property in their own name, vote, travel freely, work outside the home without a male’s permission, etc.

people can claim all they want but the Church doesn’t teach that women have no rights etc. So what is the point of the question?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Hmmmmmmm… No retort from the OP in days? Mayhap repentance of atheism has occurred?

I am afraid not.

I accidentally got hit in the head yesterday, but not* that *hard.

 

[vsedriver]

I was not speaking about marriage or even authority in the Church, I was talking about women having positions of authority and power in secular society.

it’s pretty hard to have a position of authority or power when you are changing diapers and feeding babies.

take producing children and the responsibility for child care out of the picture and women look a lot more like men so it is easier to think they are the same as men and treat them like men.

 

[vsedriver]

Christians advocates of patriarchy (such as yourself) often claim that this is the case because male leadership/headship is divinely ordained.

I’m confused. I thought you were talking about patriarchy in the secular world. But now you are talking about patriarchy in the religious world. Which do you wish to discuss?

So I ask, what’s so special about patriarchy?

Well, for a Christian it would have to be that it is special because it is divinely ordained. No need for any other justification.

Nothing else the God of Abraham is said to support has enjoyed such amazing and consistent success. It appears that other factors are at work (at least to this outsider).

in secular society there are other factors at work. Economics, child care, biological differences, etc. in the Christian religion we follow the examples given by God, the Father. Our relationship to God is a paternal one. I see nothing wrong with that. I do not see it as a put down of femininity or of a matriarchy. God picked for us. He could have done it the other way. And that would have been OK too.

 

[vsedriver]

It never escaped my attention that the fiercest and most powerful figures and groups in the pro-life movement (internationally) don’t seem to have much concern for people (especially women) once they are born.

what evidence do you have that pro-lifers have little concern for people once they are born? How do you know they don’t support charities that assist single mothers and adoption agencies?

And of course the Church Universal and Triumphant.

I guess you are unaware of all the Church run charities that assist pregnant women and their children.

My objections to widespread abortion and mostly practical, for I am not merely an athiest, but also a pragmatist.

so you feel abortion is OK as long as the government controls citizens to ensure they don’t do something stupid with their lives?

 

[Benadam]

The highlighted statement is simply wrong.

Muslims freely and openly admit that they think things like Sharia law are based on religious teaching and affirms a man’s right to rule over the women in his family. For instance, in Iran a woman’s worth is half that of a man’s, based on their interpretation of Islamic teaching (relevant source: hudson-ny.org/826/dirty-mullahs-in-iran).

You have noticed the many governments over there being toppled? The people of those countries want western style freedom. They want an identity that can play the global game that’s crystalyzing now.

 

[StarFireKK]

AA, as many of the posters have stated you don’t have a full understanding of what the Church teaches about Women and their roles.

Yes, yes, yes…I know, other Catholics have told you “x.” Well as you pointed out with your other examples sometimes we are imperfect creatures. There are Catholics out there that don’t believe it is a sin to miss Mass on Sunday or to use contraceptives, but that doesn’t mean they are correct.

At the heart of the Church’s teachings about the roles of men and women is the family. Our purpose in life is to love and serve the Lord and to raise our children to do the same. We have different roles as parents and from that stems our different roles in the home.

The Church does NOT teach that women cannot work outside the home. The Church does NOT teach that women cannot hold public office. The Church does NOT teach that it is ok for the husband to beat/rape/otherwise mistreat his wife and children. Now there are Catholics out there that do believe such things but that does not make those beliefs the teachings of the Church.

Wives are told to submit to their Husbands…but you need to keep reading. Husbands are to love their Wives as Christ as loves his Church. What did Christ do for his Church? He was humiliated, tortured, and he died for us. Despite all the mistreatment of him, his mercy and forgiveness knows no bounds. I joke with my friends that this is where all the jokes about husbands getting cold feet before the wedding comes from…that’s a very tall order for husbands.

Now do all husband’s treat their wives that way? No. Do all parents treat their kids well? No. Are all leaders just and honorable? No. We are imperfect creatures.

You set up a situation where you will not believe what the Church teaches is God’s Will unless you have an example of Satan attacking and winning. To me that’s just an oddball way of going about it. But if you want to use such logic, I would argue you can see the Devil’s handiwork not in the rise of female societies and leaders but in the brutal treatment of women and children in the hands of evil men.

Think about it: Why empower one gender when you can destroy both?

 

[wisdomseeker]

it’s pretty hard to have a position of authority or power when you are changing diapers and feeding babies.

take producing children and the responsibility for child care out of the picture and women look a lot more like men so it is easier to think they are the same as men and treat them like men.

:bowdown::byzsoc:

 

[valentino]

Being submissive doesn’t mean a woman has to be a doormat though.She should submit to honest demands but she should be respected.She has dignity.She’s an equal partner its just that she has different functions.Man is physically stronger and since he can’t bear children and nurse them its only proper that he should have different responsibilities than a woman.

 

[Heliotropium]

Oh you make me laugh

Explain to me then how Jesus is not both God and man.
Or admit that He is.

The Person of Christ is both God and Man but His humanity adds nothing to His Divinity. Christ’s Humanity was and is male but His Divinity is neither male or female. To say that Christ’s Humanity and His Divinity is one nature would be heresy. I thought you would have know this since its pretty basic…sad that you dont.

 

[Allegra]

AngryAtheist, for my benefit, could you please explain more clearly which teachings or even wide-spread practices of our faith you find so objectionable. I’m having a hard time following the thread because it keeps switching subjects. Do you feel that the church is in some way keeping women from their rights? Are you trying to argue in a round about way that Feminism isn’t sinful? I don’t know that any Catholic thinks it is sinful for a woman to have the same legal rights as a man. Some may choose not to take advantage of say, the right to equal employment and cite devotion to their Christian role as a wife and mother as the reason, but I don’t think anyone would advocate having the right abolished.
On the other hand, Feminism has brought about some rather disgusting side effects and I honestly feel that more women are used, abused, and manipulated because of it than ever were before. The sick fact is that most of the victims are doing it to themselves! They don’t need a man to treat them as nothing more than an object for sex because that is how they treat themselves. Go into the nearest school nurses office and have a look around! Most likely among the instructions for using condoms and pamphlets on suicide hotlines, you’ll find a nice big filing cabinet that’s filled to the brim with antidepressant perscriptions for young girls who haven’t seen twelves years. Call it sin. Call it freedom. Call it mental illness. The point is, we’ve got it and I don’t think it was caused by patriarchy.

 

[exnihilo]

That men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive, and that that is the way it ought to be.

Men are certainly naturally physically stronger. As for dominant versus submissive wills that is an interesting question as to whether that is the case. Women can have very dominant wills but they will often go about achieving their ends less directly and thus not appear as dominant.

For one thing, in practice giving men all the power and women virtually no power and independence always leads to women being viciously exploited and abused by men (I think the best modern day example of this is how women are treated in the Arab world).

That seems dubious. Women in early America had no political power but were not systematically abused. In the Roman Empire men were certainly the most powerful yet the early Roman emperors were mostly determined by women: mothers and wives.

In fact the ability for women to obtain political power in Western Civilization disproves the belief that women were systematically abused by the will of men. If it was only men who had political power, and they wished to abuse women, then they would have never given political power to women as they did.

The fact that things God dislikes frequently flourish is usually justified by the explanation that humans are fallen people in a fallen world, and because of that Satan has great influence in the world. Influence the fallen angel uses to corrupt and distort God’s Creation and plan.

However, this influence has apparently never been used to seriously disrupt male rule of the human species (at least until the last century or so).

To a humanist like myself this seems very suspicious.

Apparently Satan and those under his influence can create societies where things like human sacrifice, male homosexuality, and even the unnecessary and cruel mutilation of baby girls sexual organs are celebrated, but they can’t challenge the Good Ol’ Boy system(s)

Others have pointed out some ways in which women exercised power in history that is often ignored because the modern narrative is that evil men oppressed women since the beginning of time. I think the question ignores much of history. Beyond that nature can only be perverted so far. You could just as well ask how Satan has not been able to create a society of children who rule adults like in a few horror films.

 

[urielwings4]

AA, as many of the posters have stated you don’t have a full understanding of what the Church teaches about Women and their roles.

Yes, yes, yes…I know, other Catholics have told you “x.” Well as you pointed out with your other examples sometimes we are imperfect creatures. There are Catholics out there that don’t believe it is a sin to miss Mass on Sunday or to use contraceptives, but that doesn’t mean they are correct.

At the heart of the Church’s teachings about the roles of men and women is the family. Our purpose in life is to love and serve the Lord and to raise our children to do the same. We have different roles as parents and from that stems our different roles in the home.

The Church does NOT teach that women cannot work outside the home. The Church does NOT teach that women cannot hold public office. The Church does NOT teach that it is ok for the husband to beat/rape/otherwise mistreat his wife and children. Now there are Catholics out there that do believe such things but that does not make those beliefs the teachings of the Church.

Wives are told to submit to their Husbands…but you need to keep reading. Husbands are to love their Wives as Christ as loves his Church. What did Christ do for his Church? He was humiliated, tortured, and he died for us. Despite all the mistreatment of him, his mercy and forgiveness knows no bounds. I joke with my friends that this is where all the jokes about husbands getting cold feet before the wedding comes from…that’s a very tall order for husbands.

Now do all husband’s treat their wives that way? No. Do all parents treat their kids well? No. Are all leaders just and honorable? No. We are imperfect creatures.

You set up a situation where you will not believe what the Church teaches is God’s Will unless you have an example of Satan attacking and winning. To me that’s just an oddball way of going about it. But if you want to use such logic, I would argue you can see the Devil’s handiwork not in the rise of female societies and leaders but in the brutal treatment of women and children in the hands of evil men.

Think about it: Why empower one gender when you can destroy both?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You have noticed the many governments over there being toppled? The people of those countries want western style freedom. They want an identity that can play the global game that’s crystalyzing now.

Perhaps, but even if that’s true, it in no way contradicts the idea that women in that area of the world are treated so badly thanks to a harsh form of patriarchy.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I’m confused. I thought you were talking about patriarchy in the secular world. But now you are talking about patriarchy in the religious world. Which do you wish to discuss?

Well, for a Christian it would have to be that it is special because it is divinely ordained. No need for any other justification.

in secular society there are other factors at work. Economics, child care, biological differences, etc. in the Christian religion we follow the examples given by God, the Father. Our relationship to God is a paternal one. I see nothing wrong with that. I do not see it as a put down of femininity or of a matriarchy. God picked for us. He could have done it the other way. And that would have been OK too.

If you didn’t want to discuss the issue, why bother posting about it?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

what evidence do you have that pro-lifers have little concern for people once they are born? How do you know they don’t support charities that assist single mothers and adoption agencies?

I guess you are unaware of all the Church run charities that assist pregnant women and their children.

so you feel abortion is OK as long as the government controls citizens to ensure they don’t do something stupid with their lives?

The Church Universal & Triumphant is not the Catholic Church. It is a modern day apocalypse cult, and that is literally its name. Here’s a link if your curious: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Universal_and_Triumphant

 

[AngryAtheist8]

AA, as many of the posters have stated you don’t have a full understanding of what the Church teaches about Women and their roles.

Yes, yes, yes…I know, other Catholics have told you “x.” Well as you pointed out with your other examples sometimes we are imperfect creatures. There are Catholics out there that don’t believe it is a sin to miss Mass on Sunday or to use contraceptives, but that doesn’t mean they are correct.

At the heart of the Church’s teachings about the roles of men and women is the family. Our purpose in life is to love and serve the Lord and to raise our children to do the same. We have different roles as parents and from that stems our different roles in the home.

The Church does NOT teach that women cannot work outside the home. The Church does NOT teach that women cannot hold public office. The Church does NOT teach that it is ok for the husband to beat/rape/otherwise mistreat his wife and children. Now there are Catholics out there that do believe such things but that does not make those beliefs the teachings of the Church.

Wives are told to submit to their Husbands…but you need to keep reading.

In my experience most people stop reading at that point (or at least most misogynists and radical feminists do).