If men have free will

[VeritasLuxMea]

…then what gives with John’s Apocalypse?

According to Catholic teaching, does it accurately describe the “end of the world” or not?

If so, then how can man have free will?

if not, then what is its relevance?

 

[InJesusItrust]

I personally think it is talking about the future because no man in the past did miracles like bringing fire from the sky after Jesus died.

If the world ends it means that although man has free will God has a will too. To bring about this chastisement apostasy must occur, I believe. Scripture talks about the ending of the times of the gentiles.

 

[Shlomo]

Free will should not be confused with freedom of action.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Free will should not be confused with freedom of action.

OK, I get that we live in a fallen world, but if free will means anything then how can we have a specific destiny?

 

[COPLAND_3]

God’s foreknowledge plays a part in the future being set, meaning He is able to reveal to us what is going to happen in the end times because He knows everything to the smallest detail. Our free will is on an individual basis, and whatever road we choose will not change what God has revealed to us about the future. Even though we have the ability to choose what path we are going to take, no matter when, where, how, or how many times, we will never surprise God because He already knows everything that we are going to do. God reveals to us what is going to take place, we get to choose whether we are on the good side or bad side. But God already knows what we are going to do, and He has already determined whether we are among the elect or not, but we will not know until we cross to the other side of the grave.

 

[Shlomo]

OK, I get that we live in a fallen world, but if free will means anything then how can we have a specific destiny?

“A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.”
(Proverbs 16:9)

The first half of the verse refers to our free will, the second refers to our destiny.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

“A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.”
(Proverbs 16:9)

The first half of the verse refers to our free will, the second refers to our destiny.

Just so we’re clear: man doesn’t have free will then? I don’t understand what “50% free will means,” it seems all or nothing.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I’m sorry, why is it so hard to get a STRAIGHT answer?

My WHOLE LIFE of Catholic education, I’ve been taught that men have free will. But when I actually do the research then the answer is “well, yes and no”? What does that even mean?

WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR CATHOLICISM TO GIVE A SINGLE STRAIGHT ANSWER on ANYTHING? Everything is either a mystery or contradiction!

 

[De_Maria]

OK, I get that we live in a fallen world, but if free will means anything then how can we have a specific destiny?

God knows what you will do, but you don’t. Therefore you are free to decide for yourself:
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[panevino]

OK, I get that we live in a fallen world, but if free will means anything then how can we have a specific destiny?

Judgment does not negate free will.
If that’s your query?

 

[kevinerose]

I’m sorry, why is it so hard to get a STRAIGHT answer?

My WHOLE LIFE of Catholic education, I’ve been taught that men have free will. But when I actually do the research then the answer is “well, yes and no”? What does that even mean?

WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR CATHOLICISM TO GIVE A SINGLE STRAIGHT ANSWER on ANYTHING? Everything is either a mystery or contradiction!

Having free will doesn’t mean I can do anything I want. I can’t go to the moon just because I will it to happen. And I can’t will myself to fly around like superman either.

But God does have a plan which includes a second coming. Now we have a free will to follow God or to reject God. God doesn’t require impossible feats or difficult acts on our part to follow Him. But even so, whatever it is God wants us to do is sure to be better than the alternative.

So in short yes you have a free will and yes it is best to choose to follow God’s will.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

From the vantage point of eternity, which is properly placed out side of creation and time, God can see the beginning and end of every action. So from the vantage of eternity, the Divine foreknowledge of how events unfold is the Catholic notion of predestination. This is because He is the Alpha and Omega. It does not compete with our free will. It is just a knowledge of our free choice and all outcomes before we even choose.

 

[Shlomo]

Just so we’re clear: man doesn’t have free will then? I don’t understand what “50% free will means,” it seems all or nothing.

Man is 100% free in devising his plans, God 100% defines the outcome.

I think you confuse free will with freedom of action. Having free will does not mean being almighty.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

God knows what you will do, but you don’t. Therefore you are free to decide for yourself:

But then we are not free to choose anything, no more than a rock or a grain of sand is free to do so. Right?

If God knows what we will do before He creates us, then His act of *creation *is an act of volition. He knows what we will do, then creates us to do it… we don’t have a choice in the matter.

It would be like running an anti-virus program on your computer and then saying, “well, it was free to choose to display a video or play a video game, etc.” No it wasn’t. The anti-virus program was built for the purpose of detecting and removing viruses, it can’t do anything other than that.

So is it true that our fate is pre-determined, then? That we are all actors and actresses on the stage, unwillingly performing a play written by God?

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

From the vantage point of eternity, which is properly placed out side of creation and time, God can see the beginning and end of every action. So from the vantage of eternity, the Divine foreknowledge of how events unfold is the Catholic notion of predestination. This is because He is the Alpha and Omega. It does not compete with our free will. It is just a knowledge of our free choice and all outcomes before we even choose.

I think more and more every day that I am going to Hell (if it exists) so that is why this is so important to me. If I’m going to Hell for my own sins then** I can accept that**.

But it really bothers me to think that God knew what would happen to me and chose to create me anyway. Why couldn’t he have created me to go to Heaven? Or at least not create me in the first place?

I apologize. Today is not a good day. I am very angry with God.

 

[PJM]

=VeritasLuxMea;9335542]…then what gives with John’s Apocalypse?

According to Catholic teaching, does it accurately describe the “end of the world” or not?

If so, then how can man have free will?

if not, then what is its relevance?

***THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT ALL OF HUMANITY IS BLESSED WITH A FREEWILL. THE FACT THAT YOU CHOOSE TO STRAT THIS STRING OR TO REPLY IS PROOF POSTIVE OF THIS FACT.

Now just what this revelation has to do with End times is completely unclear to me:shrug:

God has PROMISED that at SOME UNKNOWN POINT [Mt. 24;25] He Will return. That nearly covers ALL that we can know, other than the FACT that this FINAL judgment will be on what our life choices have been; and that there WILL BE a reuniting with our THEN Glorified and perfected bodies [physical] and that somehoe EVERYONE who has EVER Lived will participate in this final judgment

It’s relevance is: 1 It is going to happen
2. We cannot know when
3. Therefore BE READY:thumbsup:

Mt. 24: 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

1Thes.5: 1-13 “But as to the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night”

Matt. 24:42 “Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Mt. 25: 41-46 “Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
***.

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

“ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. ***If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” ***

WHILE THE WARNING IS “FOR ALL” IS HAS PARTICULAR RELEVANCE FOR THOSE PROCLAIMING TO BE CHRISTIANS; BUT DENYING GOD’S PROMISE.

God Bless,
pat/PJM

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think more and more every day that I am going to Hell (if it exists) so that is why this is so important to me. If I’m going to Hell for my own sins then** I can accept that**.

But it really bothers me to think that God knew what would happen to me and chose to create me anyway. Why couldn’t he have created me to go to Heaven? Or at least not create me in the first place?

I apologize. Today is not a good day. I am very angry with God.

You’re falling into Calvinism. Take a deep breath .

God did not say, "OK, I’m going to create Veritas. He will be born on X year, commit several venial sins in his first 14 years of life. Then he’ll commit a mortal sin when he is 22, repent. Two more mortal sins at age 26, then repent. Then he will fall into despair, commit several mortal sins, not repent, and die at age 76 when he will go to hell.

OK, next person I’m creating here. . ."

God created Veritas and God exists ‘out of time’. God gave Veritas throughout his whole life (we’ll call it 76 years) literally a million or more chances to choose good. Veritas quite often DID choose the good thing. And sometimes Veritas choose the bad things. At first, Veritas repented when he chose evil. But then Veritas allowed himself to be led astray and to start blaming GOD (instead of himself) for choosing evil. Veritas STILL has the opportunity to repent and choose good. Veritas will have that opportunity his life long. Veritas is not ‘destined for hell’. God is not up there ticking off the seconds until you make the mistake He ‘knows’ you’re gonna make so He can GET you. God is all around you and within you, letting you use your FREE WILL and yes you HAVE FREE WILL because GOD is not MAKING you choose evil!!!–waiting for you to use your FREE WILL to choose Him.

So do it.

 

[johnnyjones]

I think more and more every day that I am going to Hell (if it exists) so that is why this is so important to me. If I’m going to Hell for my own sins then** I can accept that**.

But it really bothers me to think that God knew what would happen to me and chose to create me anyway. Why couldn’t he have created me to go to Heaven? Or at least not create me in the first place?

I apologize. Today is not a good day. I am very angry with God.

I undertand your feelings. It’s a tough road many times. For me sometimes I can just feel evil. I try to keep in my that I am “working out my salvation with fear and trembling”. Other times I just sin, period.

 

[panevino]

But then we are not free to choose anything, no more than a rock or a grain of sand is free to do so. Right?

If God knows what we will do before He creates us, then His act of *creation *is an act of volition. He knows what we will do, then creates us to do it… we don’t have a choice in the matter.

It would be like running an anti-virus program on your computer and then saying, “well, it was free to choose to display a video or play a video game, etc.” No it wasn’t. The anti-virus program was built for the purpose of detecting and removing viruses, it can’t do anything other than that.

So is it true that our fate is pre-determined, then? That we are all actors and actresses on the stage, unwillingly performing a play written by God?

I think this is relevant

Rev2: 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

 

[Hat4]

If I see someone jump off of a cliff I know that they will hit the bottom and it won’t end well. I know how it will end but they jumped of their own free will. Just because you know the outcome doesn’t mean you caused it.