If more people are lost than those people who are saved, how can God be said to be victorious over the devils?

[someone429]

I have read some articles that argue that more people will be lost than those people who will be saved. It seems that they are reasonable and convincing. However, I wonder: If they are correct, then, how can God be said to be victorious over the devils? Think of this: God wants as many people as possible to be saved, while the devils want as many people as possible to be lost. So, if, at last, more people are lost than those people who are saved, won’t the devils be regarded as victorious over God?

 

[Benadam]

Satan took away our freedom to choose God,and the end natural to human life
He took it away from Satan and gave it back to us.

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

I have read some articles that argue that more people will be lost than those people who will be saved. It seems that they are reasonable and convincing.

I don’t find them convincing at all. But i do think it’s the defining characteristic of different philosophies on CAF.

 

[petra22]

I think we really don’t know what happens in those moments before final death takes us. We as mortals can only suppose. There might be a tremendous fight right at that time. Still it is up to our free will what we choose… So the church teaches, why wait until the last moment? Why not follow the truth and the light??? It’s not ours to judge souls…

 

[Shakuhachi]

Maybe so. There is a fear Based approach. We must be very careful or else we are damned. Easy to see how that can lead to scrupulosity. Favorite vers is the " narrow path" .

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

Maybe so. There is a fear Based approach. We must be very careful or else we are damned. Easy to see how that can lead to scrupulosity. Favorite vers is the " narrow path" .

Remember we talked about the Big 5 personality traits? Scrupulosity is a person with high withdrawal, high agreeableness and high orderliness. There’s nothing in scripture that makes me think their interpretation of a small number of people being saved is correct, I just see it as people with an odd personality type freaking out. If they were correct, then the small percentage of people that would be saved could largely be explained by personality determined within early childhood rather than free will.

 

[Kei]

No, because God opened the gate of Heaven to all people, and we merely have to take of Him.
The devil wants everyone to go to Hell, think of all the sinners turned by God.

 

[Shakuhachi]

“Free will”, now there’s a topic. Between genetics and environment there is scarce room. But there none the less I believe.

 

[Shakuhachi]

God is victorious because he withstood tempatation and gave us the perfect example to try and follow. United with Him we are liberated form the darkness of ignorance and sin.

 

[stupidisasstupiddoes]

“Free will”, now there’s a topic. Between genetics and environment there is scarce room. But there none the less I believe.

There’s a significant interaction between genetics, environment, free will and the proportion of people that get saved. Anyone who seriously believes than only a small proportion of people will enter heaven has severely diminished the free will argument. We know that 5% - 15% of the population could fulfill the ‘requirements’ of the faith with minimal effort due to their genetics and environment. If that’s the proportion of people being saved then where are the people being saved by turning away from evil.

 

[tom1]

It’s impossible logically.

What you are saying is probably based on the experiences of saints who say horrifying things, or other sources. Here’s something of more of a theological nature rather than personal experience:

This is the triumph of Hellenistic thought in Christianity. As a Hellenist, Origen had arrived at the same conclusions. God was a judge by necessity. He was obliged to punish, to avenge, to send people to hell. Hell was God’s creation. It was a punishment demanded by justice. This demand of justice was a necessity. God was obliged to submit to it. He was not permitted to forgive. There was a superior force, a Necessity which did not permit Him to love unconditionally.
However, Origen was also a Christian and he knew that God was full of love. How is it possible to acknowledge a loving God Who keeps people in torment eternally? If God is the cause of hell, by necessity then there must be an end to it, otherwise we cannot concede that God is good and loving. This juridical conception of God as a instrument of a superior, impersonal force or deity named Necessity, leads logically to apokatastasis, “the restoration of all things and the destruction of hell,” otherwise we must admit that God is cruel.

The River of Fire - Kalomiros - Glory to God For All Things

The River of Fire Copyright 1980 St. Nectarios Press THE RIVER OF FIRE by ALEXANDRE KALOMIROS As presented at the 1980 ORTHODOX CONFERENCE sponsored by St. Nectarios American Orthodox Church Seattle, Washington A reply to the questions: (1) Is God really good? (2) Did God create hell? + In the...

blogs.ancientfaith.com

This article offers some valuable insight, you might consider it heretic though. Also, it shifts the the idol of Necessity, to the idol of Death - there’s no chance to get “more time”, and this somehow makes all this perfectly just. This is the common reasoning of our theology. God is bound by the idol of necessity and finality of Death, once a person dies, no more time, no more chances, now humans are off-grid for God’s jurisdiction and they have to be given over to the devil.

I’m struggling with this myself. Please forgive me if I influence you badly with this. IMO in order to accept our current theology as also drawn by our saints, we have to limit our understanding of either God’s mercy or his power.

 

[mdgspencer]

  What do you mean by victory? Does this mean that when Jesus came, there will be

no sin in the world? Victory in Christianity means something different from this.

 Jesus is indeed victor over satan and disarmed his power over men. But this comes

alive in those who serve God.

And so in this life, Christ's victory is partial. But after the end of time, Christ's

victory will be total. His people will praise God forever in heaven. God allows people freedom. Those who do not

love and serve God will be people of defeat. But God has chosen to let them have their freedom.

 

[mdgspencer]

In earlier post:
“This is the triumph of Hellenistic thought in Christianity. As a Hellenist, Origen had arrived at the same conclusions.”

   Origen, an ancient writer, was a genius. However, the Church rejected some of

the things he taught, sometimes in time strongly because of his later influence. I think sometimes he wrote carelessly, without enough consideration, in a very early century, when Catholic theology was in a stage of development. I think otherwise he could have been a Father of the Church.

 

[Crusaderbear]

A fundamental Catholic belief is we don’t know who has been saved and who has not…

I prefer believing more are saved than lost…

There is a very old saying…those who say, don’t know…and those who know…don’t say!