If Nazis found a cure for Hiv by torturing Jews (in the distant past), would it be wrong to use their research or cure?

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I think that the answers is obvious. It is not wrong to use the cure.

I am just curious to know if anybody thinks otherwise.

I watched a program looking at this issue. The main argument used against using the cure was that it offended the dignity of the victims and therefore the recovered research should be destroyed.
 
Nope…

It is wrong.

“The end does not justify the means”
 
Nope…

It is wrong.

“The end does not justify the means”
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Sjonesd3:
It is wrong period to torture anyone.
Obviously it would be wrong to do the research, the question is whether the research should be ignored after some idiots went and did it anyway.

Say you were looking through the some files that had only recently been discovered that have useful medical data, but at the end of the files you learn that the data was obtained by despicable methods. Should you then burn the data?

I think the answer is no. Clearly you cannot do evil to accomplish good, but if evil has been done and there is a way to salvage good out of the effects, I do not see it being necessary to avoid doing so.
 
I think that the answers is obvious. It is not wrong to use the cure.

I am just curious to know if anybody thinks otherwise.

I watched a program looking at this issue. The main argument used against using the cure was that it offended the dignity of the victims and therefore the recovered research should be destroyed.
I agree with you. It’s not dissimilar to a child who is born due to rape. It is a terrible situation, but something good came out of it and we would be disrespecting the dignity of the victims (Mother/Holocaust victims) if we did not use it/him or her.

Actually, it is remarkable how parallel the situations are.

A tragedy occurs, inflicted by fellow man. There is no way to make up for it. But something good has resulted. So we should make sure that the good that has resulted from the tragedy is used, or else we disrespect the victims of the tragedy even more by letting their suffering be completely in vain when good can be salvaged from the wreckage.

There. An argument against abortion due to rape AND against the idea that medicine created by Nazis from the torture of Holocaust victims should be destroyed. All done using basic Thomistic principles. 😉
 
Obviously it would be wrong to do the research, the question is whether the research should be ignored after some idiots went and did it anyway.

Say you were looking through the some files that had only recently been discovered that have useful medical data, but at the end of the files you learn that the data was obtained by despicable methods. Should you then burn the data?

I think the answer is no. Clearly you cannot do evil to accomplish good, but if evil has been done and there is a way to salvage good out of the effects, I do not see it being necessary to avoid doing so.
👍
 
Well, TrueLight… I certainly respect your postings.
I am going to ask you (or anyone else) to provide some church documentation to bolster your opinion. I ask because I’m almost sure I heard or read catholic teaching to the contrary on this topic.

Stolen money can be used for the poor?
We can have ‘Hooters’ for a sponsor of a parish festival?

No! Stolen money is to be returned and Hooters is told ‘no thanks’.
 
I think that the answers is obvious. It is not wrong to use the cure.

I am just curious to know if anybody thinks otherwise.

I watched a program looking at this issue. The main argument used against using the cure was that it offended the dignity of the victims and therefore the recovered research should be destroyed.
I can understand the argument against using the cure since it was found by means of torturing people. However, I would have to agree with you that it is not wrong to use the cure, and even go one step further in saying that using the cure can serve as a testimonial to the lives of the victims by means of bringing good out of evil. I’m fairly sure this would be in accord with Jewish teaching.
 
Well, TrueLight… I certainly respect your postings.
I am going to ask you (or anyone else) to provide some church documentation to bolster your opinion. I ask because I’m almost sure I heard or read catholic teaching to the contrary on this topic.

Stolen money can be used for the poor?
We can have ‘Hooters’ for a sponsor of a parish festival?

No! Stolen money is to be returned and Hooters is told ‘no thanks’.
What if the stolen money cannot be returned because the person or family from whom it was stolen is no longer alive and there is no one else to give the money to? That is the case in the present example: the lives of the victims cannot be returned.
 
Well, TrueLight… I certainly respect your postings.
I am going to ask you (or anyone else) to provide some church documentation to bolster your opinion. I ask because I’m almost sure I heard or read catholic teaching to the contrary on this topic.

Stolen money can be used for the poor?
We can have ‘Hooters’ for a sponsor of a parish festival?

No! Stolen money is to be returned and Hooters is told ‘no thanks’.
You are misunderstanding what we’re saying.

Lets draw analogies to your examples:

Stealing money to give to the poor or hosting a fundraiser at hooters would be analogous to torturing the people for information directly. Bad thing. Not cool. Not allowed. At all.

But if someone steals some money and hides it, then it is found years later when there is no possibility of returning said money to its original owners or their descendants because we have no idea who they are, then I think using it to help the poor would be a great solution. Note that part of the requirement is that there is no way to return the money - being able to return the money would be analogous to being able to raise the victims back to life by destroying the data, which is clearly impossible.

Likewise, if the owner of Hooters (publicly and obviously) converts on his deathbed leaves the money he has made from it to be used to help the poor, that would also be good. Should the money be destroyed instead? Now of course, in this case it must be obvious that by taking the money to help the poor, we don’t give the impression that we think that Hooters was good, or that we’re compromising principles for money. It would not be good, I think, to work out a deal where we take 10% of Hooters profits to help the poor while Hooters is being run the way it is now.

In a similar way, if there was some group of people torturing others for medical information, I do not think we could not sit there and say “well I think you guys are wrong, but please pass along info as you get it.” This would be coming to close to approving or tolerating the despicable methods, which we cannot do.

So, I think it would be ok to use the information because:
  1. We are not doing evil. We are not torturing anyone.
  2. We are not condoning or seeming to condone evil, and especially ongoing evil.
 
You are misunderstanding what we’re saying. Lets draw analogies to your examples: Stealing money to give to the poor or hosting a fundraiser at hooters would be analogous to torturing the people for information directly. Bad thing. Not cool. Not allowed. At all. But if someone steals some money and hides it, then it is found years later when there is no possibility of returning said money to its original owners or their descendants because we have no idea who they are, then I think using it to help the poor would be a great solution. Note that part of the requirement is that there is no way to return the money - being able to return the money would be analogous to being able to raise the victims back to life by destroying the data, which is clearly impossible. Likewise, if the owner of Hooters (publicly and obviously) converts on his deathbed leaves the money he has made from it to be used to help the poor, that would also be good. Should the money be destroyed instead? Now of course, in this case it must be obvious that by taking the money to help the poor, we don’t give the impression that we think that Hooters was good, or that we’re compromising principles for money. It would not be good, I think, to work out a deal where we take 10% of Hooters profits to help the poor while Hooters is being run the way it is now. In a similar way, if there was some group of people torturing others for medical information, I do not think we could not sit there and say “well I think you guys are wrong, but please pass along info as you get it.” This would be coming to close to approving or tolerating the despicable methods, which we cannot do. So, I think it would be ok to use the information because: 1) We are not doing evil. We are not torturing anyone. 2) We are not condoning or seeming to condone evil, and especially ongoing evil.
I lean more towards this viewpoint intellectually, but…
The thread is pretty new and so far it is us saying “I think”…I would love to see some church teaching on this. It must have been addressed. Research at 3:30 AM is not a good idea for me!!
 
I think that the answers is obvious. It is not wrong to use the cure.

I am just curious to know if anybody thinks otherwise.

I watched a program looking at this issue. The main argument used against using the cure was that it offended the dignity of the victims and therefore the recovered research should be destroyed.
Not SO obvious. Since it was the Nazis I can imagine “cures” like the unethical suggestion to a cancerous (or leprous was it?) Emperor Constantine that he should bathe in the blood of fresh killed infants. Story went that he refused and was later cured.

fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/saints/constantine_helen.htm < the story from a Russian Orthodox source. Medical ethics, not miracles, my point in posting. 🙂

That is to say even if such would seem to cure - it involves a sin and cannot ever be used.

BUT you probably had in mind a morally licit cure NOW, the knowledge of WHICH came about through unspeakably reprehensible means. In THAT case - when taking the cure
was not harming anyone or anything NOW - the worst consequence would be the justification of the method by which the cure was obtained. What to do then?

Perhaps use the cure, credit the victim of the horror as the hero, and when publicity
went forth about it recount the villiany of the perp with extreme prejudice.

Something like:

"A breakthrough in the treatment of HIV has been achieved at Herzen General Hospital in
Berlin thanks to the contribution of Meyer Goldberg a victim of Nazi Dr. Josef Mengele’s ghastly “medical experimentation” torture contrivances.

“It’s an ill wind that blows no good,” said Dr. Nobel Truehart, primary care physician for the
HIV patient. “While Mr. Goldberg died a helpless victim at Mengele’s hands, his immune system reacted in unforeseen ways to the torture. He died a fighter, and now his suffering
turns out not to have been in vain!”

Functionaries assisting at Mengele’s sessions dutifully took notes at the sham “medical experiments” most of which was used for political justification or publication in similarly
dubious wartime “Medical Journals”.

“Though rife with quackery some of these medical accounts contained cogent observations by Mengele’s medical functionaries, and the surprising strength of Mr. Goldberg’s immune system gave us a clue that led to this actual breakthrough in medicine,” Truehart said.

When asked about the ethics of using medical knowledge acquired in such circumstances,
Truhart defended his decision.

“My first duty is to my patients. My unique treatment was inspired by work which we later found used some of the experimental data from those torture sessions. We drew a gold nugget from a very dark mine I’d say.”

Truhart was hesitant to acknowledge Nazi medicine in any way however.

“In that many HIV victims today may have contacted their illness in ways that would have
led Nazi authorities to execute them - I don’t think I will credit them at all,” Truehart said.
“Instead let us honor the memory of Mr. Goldberg, whose suffering of injustice has turned out to be more meaningful than his reprehensible quackish captors could ever have imagined.”
 
You are misunderstanding what we’re saying.

Lets draw analogies to your examples:

Stealing money to give to the poor or hosting a fundraiser at hooters would be analogous to torturing the people for information directly. Bad thing. Not cool. Not allowed. At all.

But if someone steals some money and hides it, then it is found years later when there is no possibility of returning said money to its original owners or their descendants because we have no idea who they are, then I think using it to help the poor would be a great solution. Note that part of the requirement is that there is no way to return the money - being able to return the money would be analogous to being able to raise the victims back to life by destroying the data, which is clearly impossible.

Likewise, if the owner of Hooters (publicly and obviously) converts on his deathbed leaves the money he has made from it to be used to help the poor, that would also be good. Should the money be destroyed instead? Now of course, in this case it must be obvious that by taking the money to help the poor, we don’t give the impression that we think that Hooters was good, or that we’re compromising principles for money. It would not be good, I think, to work out a deal where we take 10% of Hooters profits to help the poor while Hooters is being run the way it is now.

In a similar way, if there was some group of people torturing others for medical information, I do not think we could not sit there and say “well I think you guys are wrong, but please pass along info as you get it.” This would be coming to close to approving or tolerating the despicable methods, which we cannot do.

So, I think it would be ok to use the information because:
  1. We are not doing evil. We are not torturing anyone.
  2. We are not condoning or seeming to condone evil, and especially ongoing evil.
Although I agree with you, I was also thinking that by using the research that was obtained in this way, might it not be an implicit acknowledgment that the Nazis should be credited with finding a cure to HIV? Not that we are condoning the torture, but rather saying that what they did produced something good. I guess we might also say that G-d brought good out of evil, but I’m not sure now about the implications of this.
 
I lean more towards this viewpoint intellectually, but…
The thread is pretty new and so far it is us saying “I think”…I would love to see some church teaching on this. It must have been addressed. Research at 3:30 AM is not a good idea for me!!
Nor is it for me! Good night…
 
Good night Meltz…

BTW…I think this scenario is more akin to ‘Embryonic stem cell research’ than to a child concieved by rape as a previous poster suggested.
 
Although I agree with you, I was also thinking that by using the research that was obtained in this way, might it not be an implicit acknowledgment that the Nazis should be credited with finding a cure to HIV? Not that we are condoning the torture, but rather saying that what they did produced something good. I guess we might also say that G-d brought good out of evil, but I’m not sure now about the implications of this.
I think it all depends on what you mean by “credited”.

The classic Christian example is to look at the Crucifixion of Christ: we believe the greatest good that humanity could ever hope to have came out of the torturing and murdering of an innocent Man.

That torturing and murdering was a direct result of Judas’s betrayal. But rather than say that the good results are credited to Judas, we say that they are credited to Jesus.

Likewise, whatever good could possibly come out of Nazi research, whether they were trying to accomplish it or not, would be credited to the victims and not the murderers. Not in the sense that they (the victims) tried to bring them about, any more than Jesus nailed Himself to the cross, but in the sense that it was their sacrifice that brought it about.

That the Nazis put lots of time and effort, even used skills that could otherwise have been used to do good things, into causing this sacrifice to occur gives them no more credit than the roman soldiers who, using skills that could otherwise been put to good use, hammered the nails through Jesus’ hands and feet are credited with His sacrifice.

I think the idea of bringing good out of evil is exactly the right way to approach this. Not to pretend that the evil was anything less than evil, and not to pretend that any good effects could somehow justify what was done, but rather to try to take those undeniably terrible things that have been done as done and to continue on trying to do the most good with whatever is left.
 
The question as to whether research done on concentration camp inmates should be put to use now has come up for decades. One article that discusses the Nazi research done and shows how some have grapled with the question of putting it to use is at
www.cedarville.edu/personal/sullivan/cedarethics/papers/2011/wilson.pdf
Hopefully someone knows of a published take on this question from the viewpoint of Catholic moral theology.
 
The question as to whether research done on concentration camp inmates should be put to use now has come up for decades. One article that discusses the Nazi research done and shows how some have grapled with the question of putting it to use is at www.cedarville.edu/personal/sullivan/cedarethics/papers/2011/wilson.pdf Hopefully someone knows of a published take on this question from the viewpoint of Catholic moral theology.
Very good read!! Thanks for posting it. I’m including a highlight…
The Nazi doctors used horrifying practices to conduct their experiments, and most people feel a sense of unease about using the data in contemporary scientific studies. The natural distaste for the data is an important part of making competent ethical decisions in the natural law framework, and no one should ignore that instinctual feeling. However, instinctual feelings are not the only means of making ethical decisions.
Divine command theory relies on God to guide ethical decision making (Wilkens, 1992). Although the Bible does not specifically address the question of whether or not to use the Nazi data, many Biblical principles can assist in the decision making process. Based on divine command theory, the Nazi research data should be discarded to serve as a reminder of the depravity of humanity.
The Nazi research data comes from unspeakably evil actions, and the Bible clearly warns Christians to not be associated with evil. Romans 12:9 states: “Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.” Christians should completely reject that which is evil, and only accept the good. Furthermore, 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, “Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil.” Christians should choose to distance themselves from evil, including choosing not to benefit from the data produced by the horrors of the Holocaust.
Scientists cannot separate the raw data from the way in which the Nazi doctors produced it, therefore, to avoid associating with evil, scientists should not reference the data. Sadly, using the data, even with good intentions, may encourage similar experiments in the future because it affirms the validity of the experiments, and provides tacit support for what was done. The world must make a clear choice to separate humanity from the horrors of the Holocaust because humans are depraved and could potentially repeat the evils. If science blurs the line of ethics by using the data, the horrors might be repeated.
 
I think that the answers is obvious. It is not wrong to use the cure.

I am just curious to know if anybody thinks otherwise.

I watched a program looking at this issue. The main argument used against using the cure was that it offended the dignity of the victims and therefore the recovered research should be destroyed.
Well actually, we have a real world example of your scenario above in the BAYER Co., which produces Bayer aspirin and a host of other pharmacuticals products. Bayer is a German company that did subject Jewish prisoners to experiments using and testing pharmacuticals. I recall this from about 10 years past when it was raised by some Jewish survivors, however I do not recall the outcome so perhaps someone can research to see what was the resolution.
 
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