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ignatius777
Guest
You are quite welcome
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Robertanthony
Guest
Being OCD, I have to ask: can a couple or someone in the couple sin using NFP if their heart really isn’t open to procreation, as in “a baby would be bad news and I fervently hope it doesn’t happen”?
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ignatius777
Guest
Yes. Every act of marital intercourse must be open to the transmission of life. Its a renewal of a covenant that was entered into on the marriage day. A covenant is an oath and to falsely enter into an oath is a lie and lying is a sin.
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Alexander_Smith
Guest
“Lucky”? Destroying your own ability to father a child is lucky? Do we get married to have loads of sex and no kids, or to have a family?
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jtodisco
Guest
The following is taken from Christopher West’s book Theology of the Body for Beginners (pages 111 -112):
"What’s the Difference?
To some people this seems like splitting hairs. “What’s the big difference,” they ask, “between rendering the union sterile yourself and just waiting until it is naturally infertile? The end result is the same: both couples avoid children.” To which I respond, what’s the big difference between killing Grandma and just waiting until she dies naturally? End result’s the same thing: dead Grandma. Yes, but one is a serious sin and the other is not. It is exactly the same with contraception and NFP.
As John Paul II observes, the difference between periodic abstinence (NFP) and contraception “is much wider and deeper than is usually thought, one which involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality” (FC 32). The difference, in fact, is one of cosmic proportions.
First, it is important to realize that the Church has never said it is inherently wrong to avoid children. But the end (avoiding children) does not justify the means. There may well be a good reason for you to wish Grandma would pass on to the next life. Perhaps she is suffering terribly with age and disease. But this does not justify killing her. Similarly, you may have a good reason to avoid conceiving a child. Perhaps you are in serious financial straights. Perhaps you have four kids under the age of four and you have reached your emotional limits. But no scenario justifies rendering the sexual act sterile, just as no scenario justifies killing Grandma.
Grandma’s natural death and a woman’s natural period of infertility are both acts of God. But in killing Grandma or in rendering sex sterile, we take the powers of life into our own hands – just like the deceiver originally tempted us to do — and we make ourselves like God (see Genesis 3:5). Therefore, as the Pope concludes, “Contraception is to be judged so profoundly unlawful as never to be, for any reason, justified. To think or to say the contrary is equal to maintaining that in human life, situations may arise in which it is lawful not to recognize God as God.” (Address, October 10, 1983)."
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twoangels
Guest
I went to Franciscan University of Steubenville. The average student there was one of 6 kids. There were a few families of 8 kids and then you’d find the random surprises of “I’m one of 12.” I once met a girl who told me she was one of 14. I’ve never met anyone who was 1 of 17.
I’m a newlywed, so I can’t really say how its been effective for us except to say that our pregnancy wasn’t a surprise. We had issues when we got married where sex was very difficult for me. Our attempts were so painful for me, that subsequent attempts were becoming worse and worse and it was hurting our marriage. I ended up having to go through treatment and periodically abstaining was causing me to dwell on my negative experiences and to build up fear for when I’d be infertile again and we’d start trying. I also had very short cycles, so this put an immense amount of pressure on me to perform on my infertile days. So while we felt we had a serious reason to avoid pregnancy morally speaking, we felt that my condition was hurting our marriage so greatly that it was more important to not take a week off of trying. This also took the pressure off of me about having to use a very limited non-fertile period. Our decision was made through prayer so while we weren’t trying to get pregnant, we decided to just be even more open to it.
What I can say is that during the period where we weren’t attempting during my fertile period, we didn’t get pregnant. Then we used my fertile period and a positive pregnancy test came out of it. It was scary, but its been a blessing.
We’ll see how it goes afterward. The biggest complaint I hear from my friends is that that while for some women breast feeding completely delays the return of your fertility, for other women breastfeeding can make things confusing. I think its also confusing because most women don’t chart during their pregnancies. So I think a good refresher course aiming on post partem NFP is something that can help prevent the super close spacing of children. But everyone I know says that it can get frustrating and that its important to put more trust in God than in the method. I think what they mean by that is that sometimes couples can obsess about it and stress out about the fact that the post partem period is confusing. Its important to not put SUCH importance on having control.
The method works (that’s what the studies say), but overall if you want to use the method effectively, if you’re unsure about your fertility on a particular day and really feel its important to wait to get pregnant, that’s a day for abstainance. And if you’re unsure a lot, that makes for a lot of abstainence. Now, before I was married, I charted for a good 6 months before i got married. I knew my body very well. I did feel completely confident going into my marriage in knowing whether or not I was fertile. But that said, it took me more than one cycle to get confident, and we learned that had we been learning the method after we were married, the instructors were only advising one month of total abstainence.
So its important to understand the factors going into this. First off, the method is not 100% effective. Its not a miracle like the virgin birth if you get pregnant when you knew your fertility well and didn’t use any of your fertile days. Its just unlikely to happen. But then there is the factor of sex being important to a marriage and weighing that out with delaying the conception of a new child and what that will mean to a marriage.
And ultimately that’s what it comes down to in needing a “serious reason.” Its not that preventing children is bad, but rather that sex in marriage is a very important part of marriage. It is a sacramental act that strengthens the bond of your marriage and gives you sacramental graces to help you live out your vocation as a married couple. Giving up sex isn’t a small thing. Heck St. Paul says that couples should only abstain through mutual consent, perhaps to pray, but that they should come together. Their union is important and its more important than just having babies.
So the thing to remember is that in sex, you need to accept the entirity of the person that is your spouse. You shouldn’t be afraid of the gift of your fertilities, but simply need to balance out responsible parenthood. Contraceptives never let you see that in being so petrified of fertility, that you really are rejecting a beautiful part of your sexuality and of the other person. NFP puts you facefront with the reality of that rejection. As such, it challenges your motives to prevent pregnancy and purifies your intentions, and thus draws you to loving each other in a far more radical way than is possible with contraceptives. I say this from experience now. Before I was married, it was all intellectual and theoretically. But now it seems to me a completely lived reality.
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TimothyH
Guest
No, you are not being perfectly honest.
There are people on welfare with more than one child. My mom had ten brothers and sisters. I have a friend with six. People have been having more than 2.5 children per family since history began. Most people, if they were honest, would admit that they didn’t want to give up a certain lifestyle in order to afford more children, that they simply prefer cable TV and iPhones over children.
Using artificial contraception is using another human being’s body for your personal pleasure. It also shuts God out of what should be a holy act between husband, wife and God,an act where man, woman and God become co-creators of human life.
Widespread availabilty and use of contraception has created a culture in which sex has become a recreational activity. Recreational sex without consequences is now demanded as a right and the result is a cluture where more than half of all black children are born into homes without father. lesbianism is now fashionable in high schools, homosexuals are demanding marriage and adoption rights and AIDS and other diseases flourish. More than that, the culture of recreational sex brought about by widespread availablity and use of contraception has led to the demand for 1.5 million abortions each year. Yes, contraception is the root cause of much of our societal woes including 25 percent of all men and 9 percent of all women in the US being addicted to porn nd the broken marriages which that has produced.
You who use artificial contraception are directly responsible for causing a culture which demands abortion. You who use contraception bear the brunt of the blame for creating the conditions which cause abortion to fourish and shame on Catholics who should know better.
Yea, I said that.
-Tim-
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Fidelia
Guest
Those sum it up quite well.
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Maureen1125
Guest
I only know of 1 family that practices NFP and they do have 6 kids and 2 miscarriages.
My own parents practiced NFP and I am the youngest of 7 kids.
NFP is only reliable if you…or rather your wife… are very very diligent in monitoring your cycles. This means several months of abstinance while you temp and chart and use a site like “Fertility Friend” to help you understand what the heck all the temps and charting mean. I say several months because a woman’s body is hardly predictable and many factors…such as stress or illness…can effect the way it functions. So once you know how her body is working, you also have to take into account YOUR body and the fact that sperm can survive for several days, so while you “thought” it was safe, because your wife was not set to ovulate for 2-3 days, your sperm may still be hanging around waiting, or it could be one of those off months were she ovulates earlier then expected.
Really to me, having sex only when a baby can’t be created is no different then using a condom to accomplish the same thing…no baby.
My own parents practiced NFP and I am the youngest of 7 kids.
NFP is only reliable if you…or rather your wife… are very very diligent in monitoring your cycles. This means several months of abstinance while you temp and chart and use a site like “Fertility Friend” to help you understand what the heck all the temps and charting mean. I say several months because a woman’s body is hardly predictable and many factors…such as stress or illness…can effect the way it functions. So once you know how her body is working, you also have to take into account YOUR body and the fact that sperm can survive for several days, so while you “thought” it was safe, because your wife was not set to ovulate for 2-3 days, your sperm may still be hanging around waiting, or it could be one of those off months were she ovulates earlier then expected.
Really to me, having sex only when a baby can’t be created is no different then using a condom to accomplish the same thing…no baby.
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RosaryFan
Guest
It works - believe me! I did NFP for years and it is quite wonderful. The reason those who practice NFP have what society deems as “too many children” may very well be because they are devout Catholics who accept the sacrament of marriage as God intended - with an openness to life. After all, they care enough about what the church teaches to opt for NFP rather than artificial birth control. Many who understand the sacrament of marriage for what it truly is consider children a blessing and tend to have more children than the couple who see many children as burdensome. Furthermore, many couples practice NFP to achieve pregnancy rather than prevent it.
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3DOCTORS
Guest
Well put.
I’m a bit puzzled - in the very first post, OP, you speak of not even being sure you can afford a child (did you and your wife even talk about your financial ability to support a family during premarital counseling or has the economic downturn since changed a once-secure situation?).
Then you want to adopt which is sometimes more costly than the hospital bills for giving birth, and the cost of raising the child is equal or greater (depending on if you adopt a child who may have special medical or psychiatric needs, which is probably what you will be limited to adopting if you don’t have fertility issues). I mean, it’s great to want to help a child, don’t get me wrong - and maybe an in-between option would be foster parenting.
But IMO you should both sit down carefully and re-evaluate your priorities - it would be a very good step to take that should ultimately deepen your love and bring you both closer to God. Study the Theology of the Body materials as another poster suggested.
Another thing I think a lot of couples do - and I don’t know if this applies to you, so if it doesn’t please disregard, but I feel it’s a point that should be made - they give too much credence to estimates of how much it will cost to raise a child. These figures are by so-called experts but they are at best rough ballpark figures.
So much can change. And they usually include the cost clear through college. Maybe the kid can work and finance his or her own college; maybe he or she will choose a different path altogether. And I do think there’s probably some materialistic assumptions beneath the figures at any rate. Real families can choose to place emphasis on what really matters and live a more simple frugal life and value people over things. :yup:
I just think we let “experts” spook us these days.
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Link0126
Guest
haha, what? I’m supposed to be on welfare and let the state hand me a few hundred bucks a months so I can have a kid and raise them in a bad neighborhood while sending them to a terrible school with a bunch of criminals? How on earth is that better than waiting a little longer until we can afford to take care of the kid OURSELVES. I am not saying I never want to have a kid, but I would like to being able to be a good enough father for my child and actually give them a decent life.
We don’t have cable or iphones. We do have some material possessions that we enjoy having but overall we live pay check to pay check usually running out of money by the end of the month. There are things we could cut back on, like everyone, but even still it wouldn’t be enough to afford a kid at the present moment.
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WorkerPriest
Guest
Thank you for taking the time to post the reference below.
However, I don’t think it answers the question presented. Preventive birth control doesn’t kill grandma, nor anyone else… it prevents conception, which is the same aim of the acts and planning of NFP. Really, the question is whether preventing pregnancy during sexual relations is either sinful or not.
Unfortunately, I think there are really two background questions arising here. One is whether or not the Roman Catholic teaching authority has spoken on a matter, and the other is whether or not that decision bears up to rational scrutiny. Since I don’t think this falls under the banner of what Rome calls infallible (though I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am) I would suppose Catholics are free to debate the subject.
It is rational to argue (though some might disagree) that sex without the possibilty of procreation is sinful. It is also rational to argue that sex without the possibilty of procreation is morally nuetral (though some might disagree.) What doesn’t sound rational to me, is to argue that sex without the possibility of procreation is sinful, except when you do it this particular way, and don’t provide justification for how options are either included or excluded. That smacks more of authoritative fiat, than rational justification.
Once again, I’m not talking about sterilizations, or abortive agents. I’m talking strickly about preventative birth control of various forms… of which, NFP is obviously one among several. Frankly, with easily reversible hormone therapy or IUD devices, all we seem to be arguing about is whether one can prevent pregancy during sex with or without tools… and even NFP presumes certain predictive and analyticaly tools to create the target rythm chart.
Still seems to contain a bit of cognitive dissonace to me.
However, I don’t think it answers the question presented. Preventive birth control doesn’t kill grandma, nor anyone else… it prevents conception, which is the same aim of the acts and planning of NFP. Really, the question is whether preventing pregnancy during sexual relations is either sinful or not.
Unfortunately, I think there are really two background questions arising here. One is whether or not the Roman Catholic teaching authority has spoken on a matter, and the other is whether or not that decision bears up to rational scrutiny. Since I don’t think this falls under the banner of what Rome calls infallible (though I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am) I would suppose Catholics are free to debate the subject.
It is rational to argue (though some might disagree) that sex without the possibilty of procreation is sinful. It is also rational to argue that sex without the possibilty of procreation is morally nuetral (though some might disagree.) What doesn’t sound rational to me, is to argue that sex without the possibility of procreation is sinful, except when you do it this particular way, and don’t provide justification for how options are either included or excluded. That smacks more of authoritative fiat, than rational justification.
Once again, I’m not talking about sterilizations, or abortive agents. I’m talking strickly about preventative birth control of various forms… of which, NFP is obviously one among several. Frankly, with easily reversible hormone therapy or IUD devices, all we seem to be arguing about is whether one can prevent pregancy during sex with or without tools… and even NFP presumes certain predictive and analyticaly tools to create the target rythm chart.
Still seems to contain a bit of cognitive dissonace to me.
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Link0126
Guest
My wife said that she would like to adopt a child who doesn’t have a family at some point whether or not we have our own children. She has always wanted this and told me about it before we got married. Part of the motivation could be b/c we are not entirely sure that she will be able to have children of our own. We wouldn’t be adopting right now and we wouldn’t be doing b/c we thought it would be cheaper. I was just asking the question in general.Well put.
I’m a bit puzzled - in the very first post, OP, you speak of not even being sure you can afford a child (did you and your wife even talk about your financial ability to support a family during premarital counseling or has the economic downturn since changed a once-secure situation?).
Then you want to adopt which is sometimes more costly than the hospital bills for giving birth, and the cost of raising the child is equal or greater (depending on if you adopt a child who may have special medical or psychiatric needs, which is probably what you will be limited to adopting if you don’t have fertility issues). I mean, it’s great to want to help a child, don’t get me wrong - and maybe an in-between option would be foster parenting.
But IMO you should both sit down carefully and re-evaluate your priorities - it would be a very good step to take that should ultimately deepen your love and bring you both closer to God. Study the Theology of the Body materials as another poster suggested.
Another thing I think a lot of couples do - and I don’t know if this applies to you, so if it doesn’t please disregard, but I feel it’s a point that should be made - they give too much credence to estimates of how much it will cost to raise a child. These figures are by so-called experts but they are at best rough ballpark figures.
So much can change. And they usually include the cost clear through college. Maybe the kid can work and finance his or her own college; maybe he or she will choose a different path altogether. And I do think there’s probably some materialistic assumptions beneath the figures at any rate. Real families can choose to place emphasis on what really matters and live a more simple frugal life and value people over things. :yup:
I just think we let “experts” spook us these days.
I just finished college and have been hired at an entry level position in my field about a year ago. She is working three part time jobs. We simply have not reached a level where we feel that we can provide financially for a child right now.
Why is that so wrong? Not everyone is like you.
And BTW, she has been looking for two years for a better, full time job, she has a masters degree and STILL hasn’t been hired…
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prstoessel
Guest
One of the best pieces of advice I received when I got married 17 years ago:
“Do not wait until you can ‘afford’ to have children. If you do, you will never have them at all. Go ahead and just have them and let God take care of the rest.”
We have lived from paycheck to paycheck since the day we got married. We got pregnant two months after our wedding day. Five children later, we still live paycheck to paycheck. We’ve endured some tough times, but never went a month without what we needed. There was always food on the table, clothes on their backs, and the mortgage somehow always got paid.
Remember who is in charge, and it isn’t you! For those who take the leap of faith every day and live up to His word, He will provide your daily bread.
As for the effectiveness of NFP, every child was had was planned. Now that we both are in our 40s, as well as some health concerns for my wife, we use NFP to avoid pregnancy. During her fertile time, we abstain from intercourse. We have never used any kind of artificial contraception. We have learned that the periods of abstinence can - at times - be difficult, but very rewarding when it’s over. It’s like a honeymoon for us every month.
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RosaryFan
Guest
This is a beautiful answer! Your wife is very lucky to have you.
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limabeanerson
Guest
I’d have to disagree.
When I got my vasectomy I had really bought into the whole idea that having kids was great, but not to many because then they are a burden in the long term. I wanted to enjoy my three children and then when they were grown up be able to enjoy the rest of my life.
I admit, I sometimes think it will be fun once the kids are all grown up but more often I find myself “missing” the kids that I never had. I would never presume to compare it to someone that lost a child but there is certainly a sense of loss.
I look at my three children and think wow, I deprived them of a younger brother or sister (or 2, or 3…). I deprived myself and my wife of our future children. I may have deprived your sons or daughters of their future husband or wife or best friend!
Also, while it may have been a venial sin then it is a mortal offense and was only venial because I did not have full knowledge. I regret my decision in many ways.
I wish I had really thought my decision through rather than just assumed I knew everything because lots of people did it that I knew.
I’m glad to hear you and your wife are approaching your marriage in this positive way!
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jmcrae
Guest
Barrier contraception doesn’t cause abortions, but it does interfere with the unitive nature of the marital act, by preventing skin-to-skin contact. Skin-to-skin contact is necessary for the emotional bond to take place between the spouses. The emotional bond is essential to the survival of the marriage, and it is also very good for the whole family - it even improves the overall health of the children, from what I am told.
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RosaryFan
Guest
I know exactly what you mean by that “sense of loss”. When I found out my mother and father had, for some years, used artificial birth control, it really bothered me! It still bothers me, and I’m nearing 50! I can’t help but think what could have been. I have two sisters and they are my very best friends. We are extraordinarily close. I often wonder how many more best friends I could have had. I really do feel that sense of loss. Imagine how God must feel!
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Fidelia
Guest
If you start learning about NFP and start charting when you’re engaged, by the time you’re married you’ll already know your cycle.
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